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The rain came down%2C the streams rose%2C and the winds blew and beat against that house%3B yet it did not fall%2C because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down%2C the streams rose%2C and the winds blew and beat against that house%2C and it fell with a great crash.%22 %0D%0AMatthew 7%3A24-27 %0D%0A%0D%0AR. Eleazar ben Azariah%3A %22One whose wisdom exceeds his deeds unto what is he compared%3F Unto a tree %5Bwhich%5D the branches thereof are many and the roots few%2C so that when the wind comes%2C it uproots it and overturns it upon its face%2C as it is said%2C for he shall be like a tamarisk in the desert and shall not see when good comes%2C but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness%2C a salt land and not inhabited. But one whose deeds exceed his wisdom%2C unto what is he compared%3F Unto a tree the branches therefore are few%2C and the roots many%2C so that even if all the winds in the world come and blow upon it%2C they do not move it from its place%2C as it is said%2C for he shall be as a tree planted by the waters and that spreads its roots by the river%2C and shall not see when heat comes%2C but its foliage shall be luxuriant%2C and shall not be anxious in the year of drought%2C neither shall cease from yielding fruit. %0D%0AMishnah%2C Pirke Avot 3%3A17 %0D%0A%0D%0A%22The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. . . %22 Matthew 22%3A2 %0D%0AAnd%3A%0D%0A%22What shall we say the kingdom of God is like%2C or what parable shall we use to describe it%3F%22 %0D%0AMark 4%3A30%2C Cf. Luke 13%3A18%2C 20%0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A %22To what may this be likened%3F To a king who made a banquet...%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come . . .%22 %0D%0AMatthew 22%3A3 %0D%0A%0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A %22 . . . a king . . . made a banquet to which he invited guests. . . %22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come . . .%22 %0D%0AMatthew 22%3A3%0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A %22He said to them%2C %91Go%2C wash yourselves%2C brush up your clothes%2C anoint yourselves with oil%2C wash your garments%2C and prepare yourselves for the banquet . . .%22%0D%0A%0D%0A%22Therefore keep watch%2C because you do not know the day or the hour.%22 %0D%0AMatthew 25%3A13 %0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A %22%5BThe king%5D fixed no time when they were to come to %5Bthe banquet%5D. . .%22%0D%0A%22The wise%2C however%2C took oil in jars along with their lamps.%22 %0D%0AMatthew 25%3A4 %0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A %22The wise among them walked about by the entrance of the king%27s palace%2C saying%2C %27 Does the king%27s palace lack anything%3F%92%0D%0A%0D%0A %22Then %5Bthe king%5D sent some more servants and said%2C %60Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner%3A My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered%2C and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.%27 %0D%0AMatthew 22%3A4 %0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A %22The foolish among them paid no regard or attention to the king%27s command. They said%2C %91We will in due course notice when the king%27s banquet is to take place%2C because can there be a banquet without labour %5Bto prepare it%5D and company%3F%92 %0D%0A%22But they paid no attention and went off--one to his field%2C another to his business.%22 %0D%0AMatthew 22%3A5 %0D%0AR. Judah ha-Nasi%3A The foolish among them paid no regard or attention to the king%27s command. So the plasterer went to his plaster%2C the potter to his clay%2C the smith to his charcoal%2C the washer to his laundry.%0D%0A%0D%0A %93The bridegroom was a long time in coming%2C and they all became drowsy and fell asleep. %22At midnight the cry rang out%3A %60Here%27s the bridegroom%21 Come out to meet him%21%27 %22Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. The foolish ones said to the wise%2C %60Give us some of your oil%3B our lamps are going out.

Dec-- at 00: AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

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1. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 11:08 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Akhi Paul:
No Adam did not speak Aramaic nor Hebrew, since neither language existed at that time. What did Adam speak? Nobody but alaha himself knows. The Talmudic quote why accurately quoted is merly an old wives tale or what Paul said to Timothy, called Myths. the quote that the Angels and spirits understand all languages except Aramaic which only god himself and certain angelic messaanger can understand is a distortion of the teachings of Acts,Qapilon 2, where the Apostles(Talmida) assembled in the upper room were filled with the Rukha Qadisha and spoke in other lishona(s). In Corithians Qapilon 12,14 we hear of lishona of Heaven called in the Yaunit text glossiolia and this is a prayer language beteewn God and the one praying alone only God and his angelic meessangers understand it. If this were Aramaic than only God and his Angelic servants could speak it, this is not the case as you know. You speak a form of Aramaic and your ancestors and the Apostles (Talmida) spoke aramaic fluently. Shlama Rabba W'Berkhate! Shmuel Eliezer Bar Yaqob You see how things can be wrong based on poor or misunderstandings given in the Talmud(Student Rabbinic Teaching Encylopedia of the Torah and its strict leggalistic observance).Shalom.

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3. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 12:13 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

I don't doubt that's it's merely a myth, but I am fascinated as to why the tradition would have existed in the first place.

Of course, speaking archaeologically and scientifically, the oldest written Semitic language is Akkadian, which is close to both Hebrew and Aramaic, and it was the language of Mesopotamia (Beth-Nahrin), where the original Semites lived.

Having said that, we know that sometimes scientific theories are at odds with scriptural revelation (i.e., evolution), and we have to decide whether or not we want, as individuals, to believe the scriptures or scientific hypothesis.

Some people prefer a combined approach (i.e., God directed evolution). I don't mean to open up that can of worms.....just stating an example of friction between the two, whether real or not, and the options available to us as believers.

It may very well be that both (or either) Hebrew or Aramaic could have existed prior to Akkadian and even Sumerian, and we simply have no record of it (yet) in archaeology....or perhaps it simply did not reach the written stage before Sumerian and Akkadian did.

Who knows?

I'm just interested in why the Rabbi's would have felt that Adam spoke Aramaic (which, personally, I do believe to be an exaggeration.)

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5. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 12:52 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Akhi Paul:
After reading James response I see he is misled almong with the Rabbinic scholars. The rabbais which wanted to desperatley force the oral Torah or what the Peshitta New Testament calls the teachings of the elders made up a lot of fictious statements in the Talmud in order to support these traditions. In deed the Talmud has quoted from the Peshitta Old Testament ,as the language is simmilar to the Talmud its self in Aramaic.The alnguage in Abraham's time was ancient Aramaic now Hebrew was yet spoken by Abraham as yet. It was Moses who after the Exodus from Mitzraiim(Egyt) settled in Canon and wrote the Torah who used ancient hebrew borrowed from the Canonites living in the land. The origin of Hebrew is Ugaritic, while the earlier Aramaic has its origin in Akkadian. Both languages are closely related. In Genesis we read that before the floodthe earth was one people and one Lishona or language. The only known language surriving before the flood of 2500B.C. is the unknown Sumerian caled the land of Shinar in the Bible. this language of unknown origin was probablly the language of the earleist civilization and of Adam and Hawa(Eve),according to archaelogogy and the Book of Genesis. No language is better than another, God chose different languages at different times to speak with his people so that they might understand . The language of the Bible is simple in speech and easy to comminicate withthe people of those times. Compare this withthe Quran in Arabic, which is highly polished and very complex. the Muslium world prides its selff on having an elequent scripture of the elite. How differnet is Marya who loves all people and explains himself plainly so all can undderstand. Shlama Rabba W'Berkhate. Shmuel Eliezer

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8. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama Akhi,

I, of course, agree with you 100% about the plainness of scriptural revelation for the benefit of the people.

I feel that it is important to establish the relationships between the various languages....only because then we can see how it all 'relates'...and how the various groups relate to one another.

From a textual history perspective, I find the relationship between Hebrew and Aramaic intriguing.

For instance, here's my thoughts.....


  1. Chaldeans were an Aramean tribe who settled around Babylon, they originated from Aram (modern-day Syria)
  2. Abraham was a Chaldean (Ur of the Chaldees, his father was an idol-maker, etc.)
  3. Abraham fathered the Arabs (through Hagar, an Egyptian) and the Hebrews (through Sarah, another Chaldean(Aramean)
  4. Abraham was told to leave his homeland (modern-day Southern-Iraq, or ancient Babylonia) and settle in the Promised Land...after he lived in Harran (another Aramean town)
  5. The Hebrews intermarry with Arameans freely, even calling them 'kindred' (i.e., Yaqub)
  6. Yaqub calls himself 'A Wandering Aramean'...why? Because Chaldeans were an Aramean tribe, and that's why they had no problems taking wives from their 'kindred' (Laban...who spoke Aramaic, as Genesis testifies)
  7. What is the significance of the term 'Wandering Aramean'? The word for 'Wandering' in Aramaic is 'Abar....so Yaqub called himself 'the Abar (Hebrew) Aramean'....because the Hebrews had crossed the river Euphrates - a major accomplishment in those days, since it was a major natural obstacle from Mesopotamia to the Levant (Canaan)

    Isn't that interesting, in light of the fact that the Jews historically had no problem with writing portions of Scripture in Aramaic?

    Isn't it also interesting that, after the Babylonian Captivity, they re-adopted Aramaic as their language.....if the language of the Patriarchs Awraham, Iskhaq and Yaqub was indeed originally Aramaic?

    Why is it that Hebrew and Aramaic share the same alphabet and 70-80% the same roots? That they are related is indisputable.....but exactly how? Which one is older?

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13. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:38 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 
PAUL:

Isn't it also interesting that, after the Babylonian Captivity, they re-adopted Aramaic as their language.....if the language of the Patriarchs Awraham, Iskhaq and Yaqub was indeed originally Aramaic?


REPLY:

Some scholars have proposed that the Jews lost their Hebrew language, replacing it with Aramaic during the Babylonian captivity. The error of this position becomes obvious. The Jewish people had spent 400 years in captivity in Egypt (Ex. 12:40-41; Acts 7:6)yet they did not stop speaking Hebrew and begin speaking Egyptian, why should they exchange Hebrew for Aramaic after only seventy years (Jer. 5:11-12; 29:10; Zech. 7:5; Dan. 9:2) in Babylonian captivity? Upon return from the Babylonian captivity it was realized that a small minority could not speak "the language of Judah" ((Neh. 13:23-24) A euphemism for Hebrew as opposed to Aramaic (see 2Kn. 18:26)) so drastic measures were taken to abolish these marraiges and maintain the purity of the Jewish people and language (Neh. 13:23-31; Ezra 10:3-19)One final evidence rests in the fact that the post-captivity books (Zech., Hag., Mal., Neh., Ezra, and Ester) are written in Hebrew rather than Aramaic.

The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Bar Kokhba letters not only include first and second century Hebrew documents, but give an even more significant evidence in the dialect of that Hebrew. The dialect of these documents was not the Biblical Hebrew of the Tenach (Old Testament), nor was it the Mishnaic Hebrew of the Mishna (c. 220 C.E.). The Hebrew of these documents is coloquial, it is a fluid living language in a state of flux somewhere in the evolutionary process from Biblical to Mishnaic Hebrew. Moreover, the Hebrew of the Bar Kokhba letters represents Galilean Hebrew (Bar Kokhba was a Galilean) , while the Dead Sea Scrolls give us an example of Judean Hebrew. Comparing the documents shows a living distinction of geographic dialect as well, a sure sign that Hebrew was not a dead language at the time.

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20. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:19 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #13
 
Shlama Akhi James,

">The Jewish
>people had spent 400 years
>in captivity in Egypt (Ex.
>12:40-41; Acts 7:6)yet they did
>not stop speaking Hebrew and
>begin speaking Egyptian, why should
>they exchange Hebrew for Aramaic
>after only seventy years (Jer.
>5:11-12; 29:10; Zech. 7:5; Dan.
>9:2) in Babylonian captivity?"

Because Hebrew and Aramaic are so similiar, while Egyptian is a foreign (non-Semitic) language. It was easy to make the switch. A English-speaker can learn to speak German much quicker than he can learn Mongolian.


">Upon return from the Babylonian
>captivity it was realized that
>a small minority could not
>speak "the language of Judah"
>((Neh. 13:23-24) A euphemism for
>Hebrew as opposed to Aramaic
>(see 2Kn. 18:26)) so
>drastic measures were taken to
>abolish these marraiges and maintain
>the purity of the Jewish
>people and language (Neh. 13:23-31;
>Ezra 10:3-19)One final evidence rests
>in the fact that the
>post-captivity books (Zech., Hag., Mal.,
>Neh., Ezra, and Ester)
>are written in Hebrew rather
>than Aramaic."

That's true.....some of people (especially the prophets) could still speak Hebrew.....but then why the need for the various (non-Babli) Targums, and Talmud? All of which were in Aramaic?

"> The Dead Sea Scrolls and
>the Bar Kokhba letters not
>only include first and second
>century Hebrew documents, but give
>an even more significant evidence
>in the dialect of that
>Hebrew. The dialect of
>these documents was not the
>Biblical Hebrew of the Tenach
>(Old Testament), nor was it
>the Mishnaic Hebrew of the
>Mishna (c. 220 C.E.).
>The Hebrew of these documents
>is coloquial, it is a
>fluid living language in a
>state of flux somewhere in
>the evolutionary process from Biblical
>to Mishnaic Hebrew. Moreover,
>the Hebrew of the Bar
>Kokhba letters represents Galilean Hebrew
>(Bar Kokhba was a Galilean)
>, while the Dead Sea
>Scrolls give us an example
>of Judean Hebrew. Comparing
>the documents shows a living
>distinction of geographic dialect as
>well, a sure sign that
>Hebrew was not a dead
>language at the time."

I didn't mean to imply it was a completely dead language at the time, only that the masses of the common people no longer understood it, especially by the time of the Messiah. Hence, the need for the Targums.

The fact that Messiah spoke Aramaic is directly attested to by even the Greek manuscripts, and is something even the Western Scholars now admit.

That He preached to the common people in this language, rather than Hebrew, is well attested by the internal evidences as well as the witness of the Greek versions. "Talitha Qumi", the words on the cross, "Pthakh", "Abba" and others directly quoted in the Greek are Aramaic, and not Hebrew.

I'm not saying that it was a dead language even at the time of Messiah....only that it was not the language of the common (un-educated) people (the residents of Qumran are not in this category, being religious extremists and scribes...yet nearly a third of their writings are in Aramaic.)

At some point in history, Hebrew did indeed die out as a spoken language, hence the need for the modern spoken Israeli Hebrew to be created, based on the old Biblical....but yet still different.


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23. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:38 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #13
 
Shlama Akhi James,

Check out the "Aramaic History" section of this website.....

I have included an image there, from the tomb of an "Abba", who was the son Eliezar the priest, who was the son of Aaron the High Priest.

On his tombstone, it says that he was taken into captivity, and returned back to Israel.

What's fascinating about this tombstone is that, although it is in Aramaic - the writing is the old (pre-square-Aramaic) Hebrew characters.

Here we have proof that even the Priests spoke Aramaic after the Captivity.


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2. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 11:57 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 

I will have to look this up.

Often the Talmud cites a minority opinion.

According to b.Hag. 14 in the Talmud Hebrew is the language of the angels.

My own opinion is that Adam spoke Hebrew or a proto-Hebrew.

This is because:

1. Adam called his wife ISHA (woman) because she came from ISH (man). In Hebrew ISHA sounds like ISH butactually comes from another root meaning "to be soft" so that there is a Hebrew wordplay in this event.

2. Pretty much all of the proper nouns before the tower of Bavel are Hebrew. Prior to the dispersion from Bavel (Gen. 11) the whole earth spoke one language. AFter Bavel the language was confused, either creating various new languages, or creating Aramaic (confused Hebrew?). At any point Aramaic was born at that time and is very similar to Hebrew. Abraham departed at that time (Gen. 11-12) and he and his seed continued to speak Hebrew.

Just my opinion.

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4. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 12:42 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Thanks Akhi James,

I appreciate your looking for the quote.

I agree with you, to the extent that the Semitic languages today descend from some "proto-Semitic" speech, and all of them have aspects in their modern usage which reflect back to that common ancestor.

Whether that ancestor looked more like Hebrew, Aramaic or Arabic is, archaeologically, impossible to tell currently.

Scripture, of course, being written in Hebrew many centuries after Abraham, would give the impression of the words having Hebrew roots. That would be expected from a Hebrew document.
I'm not saying that's inaccurate, just that it would be expected.

That Hebrew existed before the first 'Hebrew' (Abraham) is logically hard to comprehend - but perhaps stating that the later 'Hebrews' (who really were Chaldeans that emigrated from Mesopotamia and intermarried with Arameans in the Levant) preserved the original proto-Semitic tongue more accurately than the other Semites did, a language which later came to be called 'Hebrew', that would be more accurate.

We can see the evolution of all Semitic languages, and especially in the Tanakh itself. Hebrew evolved from Genesis to....say Isaiah. And today, modern Hebrew is quite different from the Bibilical (as are the modern Aramaic dialects from that of the Peshitta.) Modern Arabic looks almost nothing like Quranic Arabic.....not to mention the variances between the different countries (take Iraq and Morocco, for example.)

Of course, I am speaking from the perspective of archaeological records and linguistic hypothesis. Scripture tells us something completely different.

I regard all Semitic languages to be, as demonstrated within themselves, very closely related.....with none of them being 'pure' of foreign additions, and all of them heavily borrowing from the others.

In Hebrew, for instance, there are many Ugaritic, Aramaic and even Canaanite features. In Arabic, many Aramaic and Egyptian features. In Aramaic, a ton of Akkadian influences, as well as Hebrew and Persian.

Anyway, that's just my attempt to somewhat reconcile all the evidences we have.....

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6. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:02 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Akhi Yaqob:
I fully agree with your information to a point. But I believe no language is holyier than another and that Yahweh(Marya) used the common languages of the time to communicate with his chosen underserving people for the glory of His name sake. The Sumerian language is the only one surriving before the Mabul(flood) it is not of semetic origin unknown ias to its meaning and its origins are a mystrey to us tody. in the time of Asherbanbul the King of Ancient Assyria around 700 B.C., he said no one can understand the Sumerian anymore and it is a mystry to us as well. so we see the earliest language is unknown today , only God (Elohim or Alaha) and our Maran Eashoa knows the facts in this case. I am not worried about it, i trust in the Salvation of Eashoa from Alaha our Abba the Almighty Yahweh(Marya) for all things and rely upon His word alone. Shalom Aleichem. Shmeul Eleizer Ben Yaqob

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11. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:27 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama Akhi,

I agree with you 200%.....I believe, as well, that the pre-flood language was Sumerian. That's why they are still a mystery to us, and why their language is not related to any other in history.

I believe that all modern langauges have their origin in Babylon, after the confusion of tongues....that includes Aramaic. I believe that prior to that, everyone spoke Sumerian. It just fits very well when you compare the time period, scripture and archaeology.

I don't believe that one language is holier than the other, either. I just revere the original texts - Hebrew for the Tanakh and Aramaic for the B'rit Haddasah.

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14. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:48 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 

Here we differ. I believe that the universe was created through MILTA/MEMRA/DAVAR/LOGOS "the Word".

That YHWH created the universe by SAYING things.

The substance of the universe itself is language.

YHWH created the universe by first creating the ALEF and the TAV (the 22 Hebrew/Aramaic letters).

The three letters of each Semitic root represent an utterance by each of the three pillars of the Godhead.

Now this is all mystical and a part of my faith, I am not putting it forward as an accademic but as a Rabbi.

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15. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:55 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #14
 
The 22 Paths
and the Hebrew Letters

The Sefirot of the Tree of Life are connected by 22 paths. Each of these 22 paths corresponds to one of the 22 letters of the Hebrew alef-bet (alphabet). Each of these 22 paths represents a relationship between two of the Sefirot and a combination of two of the Sefirot. As a result each Hebrew letter is more than just a letter, it is a relationship between two Sefirot as well as a combination between two of the Sefirot.

In fact Kabbalistic tradition has it that the 22 letters were involved in the creation of the universe. This is the Kabbalistic understanding of Gen. 1:1:

Bershit bara Elohim
hashamayim
v' haeretz

In the beginning Elohim
created ALEF-TAV the heavens
and ALEF-TAV the earth.

ALEF and TAV are the first and last letters of Hebrew and are understood in Kabbalistic understanding here to be an abbreviation for the whole Hebrew ALEF-BET through which the universe was created.

This is what was meant by Yochanan's statement in Rev. 1:8; 21:66 and 22:13. Although the Greek has ALPHA and OMEGA in these passages, the Aramaic text of these passages has ALEF and TAV.

Since the 22 letters of Hebrew each represent a relationship between two of the Sefirot as well as a combination of two Sefirot. And since the 22 letters were themselves involved in the creation, every Hebrew word is more than a word, it is a matrix of relationships and combinations among the Sefirot. Therefore on a Kabbalistic level Hebrew words are looked at as a series of such paths. This leads to several important methods of seeking out hidden messages in the text of the Scriptures.

These are:

GEMATRIA - In Hebrew each letter has a numerical value. Gematria examines Hebrew words and letters in the text in light of their numerical value. Some Christians have taken to calling this "Theomatics."

Example: "Shiloh comes" in Gen.49:10 = 358 which is also the gematria (numerical value) of "Messiah" as a result the Targums (Aramaic paraphrases) paraphrase SHILOH in this passage as "Messiah" and the Talmud
tells us that "Shiloh"is one of the names of the Messiah.

NOTARIKON - An acronym; anagram or acrostic. Taking the first or last letters of the words of a phrase and joining them to make a new word or, conversely, expanding a word into a phrase.

For example the word GREVOUS (NiMReTZeT) in 1Kn. 2:8 is understood in the Talmud (b.Shab. 105a) to mean:

N-OEF (adulterer)
M-O'AVI (Moabite)
R-OZEAH (murderer)
TZ-OER (enemy)
T-O'EVAH (abomination)

TEMURAH (also called ATBASH) - Involves substituting the last letter of the ALEF BET for the first and the first for the last and so on in the same pattern so that ALEF and TAV are switched; BET and SHIN are switched.

In Jer. 25:26 & 51:41 there is a relationship between Sheshach and Babel because of Temurah/Atbash).

AL TIKREI (Do not read ...but...) Vowel points are changed to convey another meaning in the text.

Example: Is. 52:7 Shalom (peace) could be read Shilum (retribution)

Trimm

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17. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:08 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #15
 

Aramaic then would be sacred because it is written with the same 22 letters and the same
system of three letter roots, thus Aramaic also
expresses the three pillars of the godhead and the 22 paths of the tree.

Trimm

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18. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:09 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #17
 

Sorry to reply to myself but there is also a parallel to the 22 books of the Peshitta canon.

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19. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #15
 
Akhi Yaqob:
Do not tlk to me about the Qabalah, it is nothing more than Jewish Gnostiscm, having its origin in the Helenistic Greek Philosophical world, like Philo of Alexander or the works of the Pseudepigrapha, Enoch,Jubiless, Apocralypse of Adam and ect. Rav Shaul called theses MYths inthe Greek or yaunit New Testament when telling Akhi Timothy not to pay them any attention. the Peshitta says the same thing only in the Aramaic. The word Gemitria comes from the Greek language and means Geomotry refering to numerical value of letters used in botht he Hebrew and Greek alphabets. The word Sod meaning secret is a secrete Gnosis knowledge that is daat known only to the inicatited few. The Christian Gnostics of the second centry thought like wise as well. They are all heretics and I agreeing with Rav Shaul refuse to have anything to do with them. Amen. Shalom Akhi Yaqob. X Shmuel Eliezer Ben Yaqob Ha Khoen Mei Kakhillath Yisroeil

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21. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #19
 

Don't beat around the bush shmuel, what do you really think?

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24. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:43 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #21
 
That's what Andrew and I love about Shmuel, he always speaks his mind without regard to being "politically correct."

From now on, Akhi, I'm going to call you "Bar-Ragshay"!

>
>Don't beat around the bush shmuel,
>what do you really think?
>


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26. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 03:25 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #24
 
Akhi Paul:
Read what I respond to James and this will show what I believe. the Qabala is pagan and anathenma to me like the early Gnostic christians were to the Church which was one at that time including the Church of the East . Even Yokhanan in his epistle wrote against these secret teachings ofd herasy. Take Valetine, Marcion, and others like him, what is the response of your Church to their teachings and charchter? Were not all of them called heretics and anthematized thatis cursed? Then why should i wast my time given to me by Maran Eashoa for His glory be spent on learning form the writings of such heretics wether they are jewish or Nonnn _Jewish in origin? Shlama Rabba W'Berkhate. Shmuel Eliezer

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27. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 03:34 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #26
 
Shlama Akhi,

I agree with you, that many times synods and councils have condemned these types of writings and others, but still I enjoy reading them from a historical perspective - they tell us much about the time and the people.

I don't consider them authoritative religiously, obviously - but they do have some value, especially in the cultural context.

I of course have no use for the Qabbalah (which is an Aramaic word, by the way, meaning "the Accepted") in a religious sense.

I especially don't care for the anti-Messianic writings, either......but they are still very valuable historically, like the writings of Marcion would be if they still existed. They would tell us more than we know now about the whole controversy.

As for the Qabbalah, it is very important culturally, and perhaps that's why many Jews revere it, not as scripture of course, but to help define the context and culture of the time.

I don't know that Dr. Trimm uses the Qabbalah in the sense of revelation, but that he uses it to demonstrate alternate methodologies used for interpretation over the years by the (more mystical) Rabbis.

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33. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 05:14 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #27
 
Akhi Paul:
That is funny if Qabala means accept why do the Rabbais teach it means to receive from the word Qibal? In perke Avoth the opening lines: Moshe Qibeil Torah Misinai...Moses received the Torah from Sinai.The word Qabala is supossed to be derived from the word Qibeil. The word Zohar means radeinance form whatI heard.It is a commentary on the Torah attributed to Rabbai Shimun Bar Yokhai, it the first century after the birith of Mar Eashoa. but it was really writen in Mideviel Aramaic by Moshe De leon of 13th century Spain under Muslium rule at that timne. or he copied and edited it from unknown sources in Aramaic at that time it made its first appearance known. Its language is Aramaic. The Zohar is very esoteric and of little value, however one Passage on Leviticus of the Zohar, a Qabalistic work is used in the Synagoagues in Aramaic durring the removing of the Torah scroll from the Ark read in the synagogues on Saturday morning durring the service. This prayer is called Bri Shemei (Blessed is the Name), it is one paragrapha long. In the Sabath songs a Qabalistic Hymn is writen called Yah Ribon Olam (LORD Master of all Worlds)and it is sung during the friday eveing meal at Home. Although a 16th.century work it is still in Aramaic and sung in that language. The Hymn Shalom Aleikhem in Hebrew is also a Qabalistic hymn of the 15th. century , but in Hebrew instead of Aramaic It welcomes the Sabbath and speaks of Angels of Peace. It is included in most Jewish prayer books. a legend about it is that durring the Sabbath there are two special Angels sent to record and see how each individual kept or did not keep the sabbath. One is good , the other Evil. Which ever one you followed must pray at the conclusion of the Sabbath for the individual to observe or not observe the Sabbath as he or she did. This is only a legend and has no doctrinal truth, but it is interesting, isn't it? I agree that for historical purposes there is some good in all things including the Qaballa, but let's not go over board and make doctrinal studies based on this information, it can be dangerous indeed. Why else would the Chruch have banned the Gnostics if not for this apparent danger? Shlama Rabba, Shmuel Eliezer

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25. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 03:18 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #21
 
Akhi Yaqob:
I think that most of the texts although some truths may be contained there in are false superstitious nonsense and I have personally got rid of all my books on the Qabalah recieved esoteric traditions. They are not worthy of my time. And this is what Rav Shaul spoke abot to young Timothy. The Gemitria is mentioned inthe Talmud as well and it is superstitions nonsense as well. i do not mind using Rabinic quotes , but as being of human not divine origin and as they reject Maran Eashoa they were given over to a depreived mind and made up many fairy tales based on their own misuse of the scripture and to make their Rabbais wise in th4eir own eyes. Did you ever noitce how shocked the Jewish people were when Maran Eashoa spoke to them on His own authority? In the Talmud and other rabinic writings all quotes of reasoning are taken from so and so from so and so and ect. None of these scholars had nay authority of their own. In the Hadith of islam we see the same thing all the hadiths or uterances are quoted as so and so said that so and so , and ect. said that Muhammad said.... Why is this? this is because the humans hav3e no real authority for what they said, only the word of God does and Maran Eashoa was the Miltha that Word. The Gnostics Baal Kubblah Kabalists and ect. were all hereitics distorting God's plain words for their own useage. Rabbi Isaac Luria of 16th century Safarat, Israel or Palestine believed according to the Qaballah based upon his talmudi Khaim Vital in reincarnitation or transmigression of the Soul. Rav Shaul said it is appointed once for a person to die and then the judgement not the rebirth. and Rav shaul was speaking by the Ruakh Ha Qadosh not as a mere human. Shalom. Shmuel Eliezer

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22. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:24 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #14
 
Shlama Akhi James,

I totally respect your position, there are many things I accept by faith as well.

I have no problem with that, nor was my previous post meant to imply that I rely only on the secular, scientific approach......obviously, I do not. If I did, I would be reading the Greek versions they claim are the original.

I'm only stirring up conversation, even if I do throw in my opinion every now and then.

I do share your belief that Alaha, for some reason unknown to us, chose to reveal Himself in the Semitic mindset and language(s), and studying these languages is one way we can better understand His Revelation to us.

Shlama w'Burkate,
Paul

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16. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 02:01 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
Akhi Paul:
I agree with you 100%. I to believe that the languages used in the original Scriptures of hebrew and Aramaic are special as to the meaning of God's word being chosen to be writen throught the Rukha Qadisha, since these languages are the ones that express the exact words of God Himself. "Reading the Scritures through a translation(Targumina) is like kissing your bride through a veil.", as quoted by the Rabbais.Shlama Rabba W'Berkhate. Shmuel

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28. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 03:59 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
Akhi Paul:

WHAT A THREAD!!! I turn my back for a few hours and...

Here's my two cents on this issue.

There is only one linguistic framework through which God has revealed Himself to man, and that is the Semitic model. Here, I believe, we all agree.

Even the same language goes through major changes as it moves through time. The most ancient languages of course are likely to change the most. Here I also think we all agree.

When languages evolve and/or spin off into regional dialects, it is also inevitable that the more they are alike the more they will borrow from each other. Zakharaya's canticle (Luke 1:68-79) as you know encodes information in BOTH LANGUAGES, literally toggling from one to the other. Many Jews even today don't realize also that when they say a prayer like Kaddish that it's in Aramaic-- just in Hebrew script. The Bar Kochba letters are in Aramaic also with Hebrew Script.

Now, here we come to heart of it. All these facts lead to what you just said. We rever the Word of God in the ORIGINAL LANGUAGES. These are dictated by the culture of the time andother factors, but they are preserved like shards of pottery from a strata of rock. For Tenakh, there can be little doubt that we are talking about what is commonly known as "Biblical Hebrew", which would have been preserved by sages and prophets even if the common populace spoke a different dialect. For B'rit Chadassah, this must be the Aramaic dialect of the Peshitta, because the Messiah and all his followers and those who wrote about him were native Aramaic speakers-- particularly influenced by the Galilean dialect of the day.

The See of Babylon (your church of course) preserved the holy writings as they received them. It is true they MAY HAVE copied Hebrew or Hebrew looking mss into Aramaic script, but if they did it was very, very early. From the time of the apostles on, they have remained unchanged. Your people also, like mine, developed a masorah (tradition) for making sure the mss were properly copied and an oral tradition on how they should be pronounced. Vowels in the text would come about 500 years later-- a blink in the eye for any Semitic oral tradition, and all this change did was formally stabilize what had been passed down intact until then.

How exactly the unpointed Estrangela fits into this I am not certain, except to say that we have mss dated from 6 CE in that style, and it appears to be the dialect of Edessa, where living apostles visted shortly after the crucifixion. Therefore, if the Peshitta dialect is not the exact dialect of Meshikha, it is as close to it as we will ever get.

Suffice to say then that I agree with you.

Shlama w'burkate (Hey-- English "script" but not Enlgish words!)

Andrew Gabriel Roth

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30. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 04:12 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #28
 
Akhi Andrew:
I totatally agre with you here. Look what one
Rabinic text says about the Peshitta Tanakh.
Eastern Aramaic or Syriac, translation of the Bible, thought to have been made at the request of king Izates II of Abiabene(died 55C.E.) who converted to Judaism. In many palces it follows Talmudic interpatation rather than the literal meaning of the text, and amy be alluded to in the Talmud(shabbath10b;Rosh ha Shana 33b; megillah 10b; see Jeshurun 2:10; Otzar Yisrael 4:322). The name Peshitta was first used by Moshe ben Kefa(died 913). It was first published in the Paris Polyglot Bible in 1645; and in a critical edition in London,1826. My source The living Torah by Rabbai Aryeh Kaplan, page 616 Bibliography,1981
Shalom, Shmuel Eliezer

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34. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 05:37 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #28
 
Shlama Andrew,

Nobody could have said it better than you Of course, the Aramaic that the Jews spoke was influenced by Hebrew, just as the Aramaic that the Assyrians spoke (Official, or Imperial Aramaic) during the days of the Assyrian Empire was influenced by Akkadian.

One thing I would like to add, too, to further complicate things....you said:

>For Tenakh, there can be little
>doubt that we are talking
>about what is commonly known
>as "Biblical Hebrew", which would
>have been preserved by sages
>and prophets even if the
>common populace spoke a different
>dialect.

I agree with this completely - but we also have to remember a very important point:

Your people had a tradition of writing scripture originally in Aramaic long before Messianism. (i.e., parts of Daniel, Ezra, etc.) And, they are still preserved in the Aramaic original in the Masoretic text! In other words, the Tanakh is not 100% written in Hebrew. Parts were originally written, and now preserved, in Aramaic.

Just a point to re-enforce the validity of Scripture being "revealed" in Aramaic - it happened long before the Peshitta New Testament.

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7. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:15 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Akhi Paul:
Look at this quote:
"Take that toothpick from between your teeth!" and the defendant would, retort, " First take that beam from between your eyes!" (Bava Bartha 15b, meaning page or filio 15(b) second page of the text. this quote about judegemnts is distored from Maran Eashoa in the Peshitta Gospel where Mar Eashoa, says, " Fist take the beam out of your own eyse befroe you remove the speck from your brother's eyes." You see the Rabbaisa in the Talmud read the Peshitta even when rejecting it and they have dared to quote what they liked and distort it attribute it to them selves and take the credit for it. Is in't this interesting? shlam Rabba W'Berkhate, Shmuel Eleizer

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9. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
ShmuelElizer Wrote:

Look at this quote:
"Take that toothpick from between your teeth!" and the defendant would, retort, " First take that beam from between your eyes!" (Bava Bartha 15b, meaning page or filio 15(b) second page of the text. this quote about judegemnts is distored from Maran Eashoa in the Peshitta Gospel where Mar Eashoa, says, " Fist take the beam out of your own eyse befroe you remove the speck from your brother's eyes." You see the Rabbaisa in the Talmud read the Peshitta even when rejecting it and they have dared to quote what they liked and distort it attribute it to them selves and take the credit for it. Is in't this interesting? shlam Rabba W'Berkhate, Shmuel Eleizer

Both Yeshua and the Talmud were making use of a common Aramaic saying.

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10. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:23 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
OOPS... I INTENDED THAT POST TO READ:

Shmuel Elizer Wrote:

Look at this quote:
"Take that toothpick from between your teeth!" and the defendant would, retort, " First take that beam from between your eyes!" (Bava Bartha 15b, meaning page or filio 15(b) second page of the text. this quote about judegemnts is distored from Maran Eashoa in the Peshitta Gospel where Mar Eashoa, says, " Fist take the beam out of your own eyse befroe you remove the speck from your brother's eyes." You see the Rabbaisa in the Talmud read the Peshitta even when rejecting it and they have dared to quote what they liked and distort it attribute it to them selves and take the credit for it. Is in't this interesting? shlam Rabba W'Berkhate, Shmuel Eleizer

REPLY:

Both Yeshua and the Talmud were making use of a common Aramaic saying.

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12. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 01:30 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
I agree, Akhi James, that we cannot automatically attribute something like this to a direct quote from the NT. It might be, but I highly doubt it since the Rabbis at the time were very anti-Nazarene.

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29. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 04:06 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Akhi Shmuel:

You think that's something?

Try this on for size...an excerpt from my book:

In the Beginning: Yeshua the Rabbi
So where do we begin? Well, perhaps no source summarizes the development of Jewish thought in the last two millennia better than the collection of biblical commentaries known as the Talmud. While the official compilation of this work began in the second century, a good amount of its teachings easily hark back to the time of the Messiah, whereas other highly regarded teachers found fame in the Middle Ages. Either way, what we see is that the Rabbi from Nazarethfar from feeling ostracized by his brethren as so often has been supposedwould have instead felt quite comfortable in terms of his ideas and analysis as a moderate and mostly Pharisaic-Rabbinic teacher.

As proof of this assertion, I offer the following parallels :

"There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known."
Matthew 10:26

Hillel says, " . . . do not say anything which cannot be heard, for in the end, it will be heard."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:4

Now a man came up to Yeshua and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"

"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Yeshua replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
Matthew 19:16-17

would say, ". . . he has gotten teachings of Torah, he has gotten for himself life eternal.]
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:7

"And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."
Matthew 6:7-8

R. Simeon says, "Be meticulous in the recitation of the shema and the Prayer. And when you pray, don't treat your praying as a matter of routine. But let it be a mercy and supplication before the Omnipresent, blessed be he."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 2:13

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."
Matthew 18:20

R. Hananiah b. Teradion says, " two sit together and between them do not pass teachings of Torah, lo, this is a seat of the scornful (Ps. 1:1). But two who are sitting, and words of Torah do pass between them - the Presence is with them, as it is said. Then they that feared the LORD spoke with one another, and the LORD hearkened and heard, and a book of remembrance was written before him, for them that feared the LORD and gave thought to His name (Mal. 3:16). I know that this applies to two.
Mishnah, Pirke Avot 3:2

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Matthew 11:28-30

R. Nehunya b. Haqqaneh says, "From whomever accepts upon himself the yoke of the Torah do they remove the yoke of the state and the yoke of hard labor."
Mishnah, Pirke Avot, 3:5

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.
Mark 2:27
R. Jonathan b. Joseph said: . . . is committed to your hands, not you to its hands.
Yoma 85b
The Sabbath is given over to you, and not you to the Sabbath
Mekilta on Exodus 31:13 (109b), cited in The New Testament Background, C.K. Barret
"Which is lawful to do on the Sabbath, to do good or to do evil, to sa

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31. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 04:26 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #29
 
Akhi Andrew:
That is great. I like the Rabincal Ethical teachings in the Chapeter of our Fathers from the Mishnah recieved oral Torah of the teaching of the elders Pharasies as well, But having a later origin than the ones it quotes for makes it quewstionable if it is simpliy being atributed to them or if they really did say that. where as the New Testament is older and much more relaible than man made traditions. Take for example the quotes in the hadith of muhammud the prophet of Islam. they were writen 300 years after Muhmad's death. and theyto make claims that so and so said that so and so said that Muhammad said...and ect. Yet it is doubtful that Muhammad said anything at all that is writenin the hadith uterances applied to the words and life teachings of Muhammad. Indeed under Islamic rule all political offecers had to have deascent from Muhammad to abtain office. And they all claimed to giving a list of family history often forged to get into their offices. I am not Judging. Shalom, Shmuel

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32. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-23-2001 at 04:38 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #31
 
Akhi Andrew:
Where did you get your sources for the Talmud you quoted for, the Talmud by socino Press directly or a Book like Edersheim's The Life and Times of Yeshua(Jesus) the Messiah, which has many rabbinic quotes pertaing to the Messiah? The Talmud its self directly is boring and very leagal istic, I use quotes from other books from it for study , but do not want ot read the whole Talmud all 30 volumes or more completely it is nonsence. the Talmud speaks of Witchcraft, superstitions like how to see Sheida (Demons and ect.) Perkei Avoth is an exception as it deals with ethical issues alone.I own several copies with English translated commentaries onthe Avoth myself, but gave up the Talmud as it is room consuming and boring. Shalom, Shmuel Eleizer
PS. do not forget there is a Rabinical Book out called Sepher Todoleth Yeishu ( The Book of the Generations of Yeshua) which calls his mother a prostute who had sex with a Roman General and accuses Yeshua with Qabalistic acts of Witchcraft. I had a copy in the original 9th century Hebrew writen by the printer on the bottom Anti-Christ , 1899 London It is in English in the Appendix in Edersheim's Book Life and Times of jesus the Messiah. Isn't that writing a blasphamous forgery? And why should any believer in Yeshua value to highlythe Rabbinic tradition which produced works like this one? Shmuel Eleizer

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36. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-24-2001 at 01:18 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #32
 
>Akhi Andrew:
>Where did you get your sources
>for the Talmud you quoted
>for, the Talmud by socino
>Press directly or a Book
>like Edersheim's The Life and
>Times of Yeshua(Jesus) the Messiah,
>which has many rabbinic quotes
>pertaing to the Messiah?

HI AKHI SHMUEL. THE QUOTES ARE DIRECTLY FROM THE MISHNA TRANSLATION BY JACOB NEUSNER-- A PERSONAL FAVORITE OF MINE FOR PLAIN LANGUAGE AND PRECISE RENDERINGS.

The
>Talmud its self directly is
>boring and very leagal istic,
>I use quotes from other
>books from it for study
>, but do not want
>ot read the whole Talmud
>all 30 volumes or more
>completely it is nonsence.

TALMUD IS NOT INSPIRED, BUT IT HAS ITS PLACE AS A VITAL LINK IN THE CHAIN OF JEWISH THOUGHT AND DISCOURSE. I FREQUENTLY USE THE TALMUD AGAINST THE ORTHODOX TO SHOW THAT CERTAIN IDEAS ARE JEWISH AND NOT CHRISTIAN INVENTIONS.


the
>Talmud speaks of Witchcraft, superstitions
>like how to see Sheida
>(Demons and ect.)

TECHNICALLY, WITCHCRAFT IS MENTIONED IN TENAKH TOO BUT OBVIOUSLY IT IS FORBIDDEN. REMEMBER SAUL AND THE WITCH OF ENDOR THOUGH? THERE IS A LOT OF JUNK IN THE TALMUD THOUGH TO BE SURE-- IT IS CERTAINLY NOT THE TRUE BAT KOL--AND IT IS NOT INSPIRED BY THE RUACH HA KODESH. BUT IF RAV SHAUL CAN SHOW THE TRUTH TO GENTILES FROM A PAGAN ALTAR IN ATHENS, I SUBMIT I CAN DO THE SAME THING TO MY OWN PEOPLE WITH THE WRITINGS OF OUR SAGES.

Perkei Avoth
>is an exception as it
>deals with ethical issues alone.I
>own several copies with English
>translated commentaries onthe Avoth myself,
>but gave up the Talmud
>as it is room consuming
>and boring.

I LOVE THE THE SAYINGS OF THE FATHERS TOO,WHICH IS WHY I USED IT SO MUCH IN THAT SECTION. THE REST I SUPPOSE IS AN ACQUIRED TASTE, BUT THERE ARE SOME GEMS IF YOU KNOW WHERE TO LOOK. JUST UNDERSTAND, I WILL USE ANY LEGAL AND ETHICAL MEANS TO WITNESS AND PROVE THE REALITY OF THE MESSIAH.

Shalom, Shmuel
>Eleizer
>PS. do not forget there is
>a Rabinical Book out called
>Sepher Todoleth Yeishu ( The
>Book of the Generations of
>Yeshua) which calls his mother
>a prostute who had sex
>with a Roman General and
>accuses Yeshua with Qabalistic acts
>of Witchcraft.

YES I KNOW IT WELL AND -- BELIEVE IT OR NOT-- I ALSO USE THAT TRASH TO OUR ADVANTAGE IN THE GREAT DEBATE. WHEN WE CONSIDER THE POINTS THAT THE "TY" AGREES WITH THE NT ON (JUST TWISTS THE REASONING-- LIKE THEY ADMIT Y'SHUA COULD HEAL AND RAISE THE DEAD THROUGH THE POWER OF GOD-- BUT THAT HE ACQUIRED IT BE DECEIT-- YOU SEE HOW VALUABLE IT CAN BE.)

AS FOR THE "ROMAN BASTARD" PART, EVEN THAT IS HELPFUL. THE T.Y. IMPLIES A SCRIBAL ERROR, SINCE THE SOLDIER IS NAMED "PANTERAS". THE WORD FOR "VIRGIN" IN THE LXX IS "PARTHENOS". SO INSTEAD OF "BEN PARTHENOS" THEY SAY, "BEN PANTERAS".

NOW WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

BECAUSE EVEN THOUGH JOSEPHUS RECORDS THE LXX BEING DONE CA 150 BCE, OUR EARLIEST COPIES ARE 600 YEARS LATER-- AND REMEMBER THAT WE KNOW THIS IS A TRANSLATION FROM THE HEBREW. BY REFERRING TO THE LXX OF ISAIAH 7:14 IN THE SECOND CENTURY (WHICH IS WHEN THE FIRST ACCOUNTS OF THIS VICIOUS LIE BEGAN; THE FINAL "TY" WAS FINISHED 300 YEARS LATER), WE HAVE ANCIENT TESTIMONY AS TO HOW THAT PASSAGE READ WELL BEFORE THE MSS EVIDENCE KICKS IN.

I DO THE SAME THING WITH THE KORAN BY THE WAY. THEY ACCEPT THE VIRIGN BIRTH-- SO BETWEEN THE TWO SOURCES, ALMOST ALL OF THE GOSPEL CLAIMS -- EXCEPT THE RESURRECTION-- ARE AGREED ON. GRANTED THAT LAST BIT IS CRITICAL, BUT THAT IS WHY WE BELIEVE THINGS DIFFERENT FROM THEM, IS I

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37. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-24-2001 at 02:13 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #36
 
Akhi Andrew:
I agree with you. you have the Mishanah, that is only a fraction of the Talmud Baboli(Babylonian) it has litterally two to four pages in Aramaic not hebrew as the Mishnah on every verse of the Mishna alone. It also goes off a a tangit many times and is exteremly leagalistic. It is like trying to stain out a gnat through an ocean. I used to have the entire 30 Volume set in Hebrew-Aramaic(Gemora)and English with in the hebrew only five or six mideveil commentators. They are Rashi, Rambam, Ramban, Vina Goan, Tosefeta, end ect.
Sabbath Hymns in Aramaic and English:
L'mivtza al ripta. K'zeitha ukh-veiatha.
Trein Yudin naqta. D'takhanin reikhaya.
Moshakh zeithadakhya. D'takhanin reikhaya.
W'nagdin nakhalaya. B'gaduah bilkhishin.
Hala neima razin. Umilin dignizin.
D'leith-hon mithkhazin. T'merin ukh-vishin.
Ithatrath kalah. Brazin dileila.
B'gu hai hilula. Derin qadishin.
To break bread-
the size of an olive or of an egg.
For in two ways can yud be understood.
in a limited or an expansive sense.
Like pure olive oil ground in a mill,
Flowing like rivers,
whispering with in it.
Let us utter mysteries
and hidden words.
That are not revealed
that are covered and concealed.
I will crown the bride
with secrets from above.
Mid the wedding celebration
of sacred angels.

Athiqinu sudatha dim-heim-nutha shleimatha. Khed-watha d'malka qadisha. Dahi sudatha dakhaqal tapukhin qadishin ath-yan l'sa-ada bahadeih.
Prepare the feast of perfect faith, the joy of the King. prepare the feast of the King. this is the feast of the Feild of Sacred Appels, the Minature Presense, and the Holy Ancient One. come to feast with it.
these come from the Sabbath Hymns called Zemiroth by Art Scroll
Enjoy. Shabbat Shalom,Shmuel Eliezer
These hymns are of Qabalistic origin, but still interesting.

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35. RE: Adam spoke Aramaic?

Feb-24-2001 at 00:56 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #31
 
>Akhi Andrew:
>That is great.

HI THERE AKHI SHMUEL! :O)

I like the
>Rabincal Ethical teachings in the
>Chapeter of our Fathers from
>the Mishnah recieved oral Torah
>of the teaching of the
>elders Pharasies as well, But
>having a later origin than
>the ones it quotes for
>makes it quewstionable if it
>is simpliy being atributed to
>them or if they really
>did say that. where as
>the New Testament is older
>and much more relaible than
>man made traditions.

MY POINT IS A SIMPLE ONE THOUGH. I AM STATING THAT WHILE THE RABBIS WHO COMPILED THE TALMUD REJECTED THE MESSIAHSHIP OF Y'SHUA, THEY STIL CO-OPTED HIS TEACHINGS. THE QUOTES I USE ARE FREQUENTLY NEW TEACHINGS PREFACED WITH "YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID"-- MEANING ORAL TRADITIONS OF THE PHARISEES-- "BUT I SAY TO YOU". THE DISAGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE MESSIAH AND THE PHARISEES NEED HARDLY BE MENTIONED, AND YET THEIR SPIRITUAL SUCESSORS IN RABBINIC JUDAISM APPEAR TO HAVE INCORPORATED A LOT OF THE IDEAS FROM THE MAN THEY CONDEMNED OFFICIALLY.

TO BE SURE, THE NT IS OLDER BY AT LEAST 100 YEARS THAN THE TALMUDIC SOURCES THAT CAME AFTER IT. BUT IF WE LOOK DEEPER WHAT WE SEE IN THE NT ARE THE ORAL ARGUMENTS AND SOME MIDRASHES OF THE NETZARIM JEWS-- AND SOME OF THEIR POINTS DID MAKE IT INTO THE TALMUDBECAUSE THEY WERE TOO INFLUENTIAL TO IGNORE.

Take for
>example the quotes in the
>hadith of muhammud the prophet
>of Islam. they were writen
>300 years after Muhmad's death.
>and theyto make claims that
>so and so said that
>so and so said that
>Muhammad said...and ect. Yet it
>is doubtful that Muhammad said
>anything at all that is
>writenin the hadith uterances applied
>to the words and life
>teachings of Muhammad.

GREAT POINT! LET'S LOOK AT OTHER EXAMPLES:

WRITINGS OF JULIUS CAESAR HAVE 1200 YEARS REMOVED BETWEEN THE EVENTS AND THE EARLIEST WRITTEN DOCUMENTS. PLATO'S-- 900. HOMER -- IF HE EXISTED AT ALL-- 500. COMPARE THEIR SMALL NUMBERS OF MSS TO THE NT IN ALL LANGUAGES AND THE CASE IS VERY COMPELLING INDEED. THE MAXIMUM TIME FRAME FROM THE MINISTRY TO THE LAST GOSPEL IS 70 YEARS-- IN TRANSLATION!!! LET ALONE THE AGE OF THE ARAMAIC ORIGINALS THEMSELVES!

NO OTHER ANCIENT BOOK COMES EVEN CLOSE IN RECENCY OF EVENTS AND EXTANT MSS THAN THE NT. IF WE THROW IT OUT AS A HISTORICAL SOURCE, THEN ALMOST EVERY OTHER BOOK DONE BEFORE THE PRINTING PRESS IS IN DOUBT.

Indeed under
>Islamic rule all political offecers
>had to have deascent from
>Muhammad to abtain office. And
>they all claimed to giving
>a list of family history
>often forged to get into
>their offices. I am not
>Judging. Shalom, Shmuel


I KNOW. KEEP UP YOUR STUDIES AND KEEP ZEALOUSLY PURSUING TRUTH. SOMEONE HAS TO STAND AT THE GATE AND CONSIDER ALL POINTS CAREFULLY.

SHLAMA W'BURKATE
ANDREW GABRIEL ROTH

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