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Infinitives section of grammar complete.

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-05-2001 at 09:58 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama l'kulkhon,

The latest grammar section, Infinitives, is now complete. Enjoy!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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Iakov
 
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1. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 11:56 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Thank you for the infinitives section of your grammar. Aramaic differs from Hebrew on this and agrees with Arabic doesn't it?

It must be very time consuming to complete these grammar sections. We do appreciate them.

Yakov

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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2. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 12:03 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Yakov,

Yes, they are the most time consuming part of this website project. I am working on the last section of the PEAL conjugaion - the Imperfect tense, which is a total monster.....the hardest one to define and instruct on yet.

I don't know Arabic, so I'm not sure whether or not the infinitive tense in Aramaic has a direct equivalent in Arabic.

If it did, it would not surprise me. Both Arabic and Hebrew are descended from the Aramaic language, both in vocabulary and alphabet. They both would have similiarities to Aramaic, as well as to each other.

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James_Trimm
 
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3. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 02:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Actually Arabain and Aramaic descend from Hebrew.

thus:

Hebrew: EL, ELOAH, ELOHIM

Official Aramaic: ELOHA

SYRIAC Aramaic: ALAHA

Arabic: ALLAH

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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4. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 06:10 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Yaqub,

Aramaic and Arabic do not descend from Hebrew. There was a time that Hebrew and Arabic did not exist.....contrary to Qabbalistic teaching.

If you'd like to go through the archeaological and literary evidence, we can certainly do so.

Question #1 - what language did Abraham in Ur of the Chaldeans speak?

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5. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 06:12 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Avraham, like Adam, spoke Hebrew

Trimm

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6. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 08:50 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-2001 AT 08:59 PM (CST)

Shlama Akhi Yaqub,

I'm not going to argue this point, since any linguist or archaeologist will laugh at such a statement.

Suffice it to say, Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic did not exist at one point in history.

By claiming that Abraham spoke Hebrew, you have to demonstrate from the archaeological record that in Ur of the Chaldees (a real city with real archaeological records) Hebrew was spoken.

The fact of the matter is, no matter what the Zohar may imply, all evidence points to Hebrew and Arabic descending from Aramaic.

Abraham came from the East - not the other way around.

Abraham was a Chaldean, like his father - the idol-maker.

Chaldeans never spoke Hebrew.

Jacob called himself "The Wandering Aramean." Why?

All the ancient Patriarchs of the Hebrew people married from their own "kindred" - the Arameans. Did the Arameans speak Hebrew?

C'MON Akhi!

Take off your nationalistic hat and put your scholarly one back on!

Even I admit that Aramaic is not the oldest language! Don't be the next Lamsa!


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7. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 11:28 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Questions:

Why did the non-Semitic Egyptian language include over 160 Hebrew names of cities in the "Land of Canan" long before the birth of Abraham?
(See LANDS OF THE BIBLE by Yohanan Aharoni p. 102-103 & 147-152)

Why are the propernames in the Bible in Gen. 1-11 all Hebrew?

Adam called his wife ISHA (woman) because she was taken from ISH (man). ISHA sounds like ISH but comes from a different Hebrew root meaning "to be soft". Adam's PUN only works in Hebrew.

According to Gen. 11 prior to Bavel the whole earth was of one language. According to Rashi what was that language?

According to the scriptures did the lives of Avraham and Noach overlap?

If Adam spoke Hebrew then all of the worlds languages would trace back eventually to Hebrew. Recent research published by Brian Stubbs has demonstrated that even the Uto-Aztecian language has a Semitic base. What Semitic language did Stubbs find at its root, Hebrew or Aramaic?
(ESOP Vol. 23; 1998; A Curious Element in Uto-Aztecan Linguistics; Brian Stubbs pp. 109-140)

Did YHWH create the universe by SAYING things? Through his WORD? Did this involve language?
Which one?

Trimm

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Dean Dana
 
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10. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-19-2001 at 00:01 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Answers:

>Questions:
>
>Why did the non-Semitic Egyptian language
>include over 160 Hebrew names
>of cities in the "Land
>of Canan" long before the
>birth of Abraham?
>(See LANDS OF THE BIBLE by
>Yohanan Aharoni p. 102-103 &
>147-152)

1) While I dont have the book you've quoted, Jews often identify any Semitic words with specifically "Hebrew" words!

>Why are the propernames in the
>Bible in Gen. 1-11 all
>Hebrew?

2) Because the Torah was written in Hebrew by Moses thousands of years after the events described in Genesis!

>Adam called his wife ISHA (woman)
>because she was taken from
>ISH (man). ISHA sounds
>like ISH but comes from
>a different Hebrew root meaning
>"to be soft". Adam's
>PUN only works in Hebrew.

3) Same as (2) above.

>According to Gen. 11 prior to
>Bavel the whole earth was
>of one language. According
>to Rashi what was that
>language?

4) What Rashi thought may be irrelevant! After all, Rashi taught that Isaiah 53 was talking about the nation of Israel and NOT the Messiah!!! Rashi despised Nazarenes and any group that proclaimed Jesus as Messiah. Why are you quoting Rashi????

>According to the scriptures did the
>lives of Avraham and Noach
>overlap?

5) Yes

>If Adam spoke Hebrew then all
>of the worlds languages would
>trace back eventually to Hebrew.
> Recent research published by
>Brian Stubbs has demonstrated that
>even the Uto-Aztecian language has
>a Semitic base. What
>Semitic language did Stubbs find
>at its root, Hebrew or
>Aramaic?
>(ESOP Vol. 23; 1998; A Curious
>Element in Uto-Aztecan Linguistics; Brian
>Stubbs pp. 109-140)

6) I do not know as I dont have the book.

>Did YHWH create the universe by
>SAYING things? Through his
>WORD? Did this involve
>language?
>Which one?

7) Most probably the now unknown proto-language, the ancestor of all languages Semitic and non-Semitic. This language is neither specifically Hebrew, Aramaic nor Arabic as it predates and is the ancestor of all three and all languages.

Dean Dana

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12. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-19-2001 at 00:28 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 

Question:

What is Alaha's personal name and what language is it in?

Trimm

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15. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-19-2001 at 01:42 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #12
 
Answer:


>Question:
>
>What is Alaha's personal name and
>what language is it in?

1) Yahweh, The verb "hawah" (to be) works in either Heb. or Aram.

Dean Dana

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8. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 11:40 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama James,

A glance at the Biblical Record and an analysis of the meanings of the various words such as Hebrew, Arab and Aram(aic) will help separate Religious Nationalism from Historical Truth (besides the fact that the Archaeological record testifies against your position).

The words, Heber and Arab are part of Aramaic vocabulary and mean "the region beyond" and "a mixed multitude", respectively. In Aramaic, "Heber" is used in everyday speech as a verb to denote "passing over" or "crossing by" or "turing away from" (see word numbers 15138, 28216, etc) Neither word, however originally meant a language or a people.

Even rabbinical Judaism admits that Abram was "the first Hebrew" where "Hebrew" is a term used to signify "one who is from another region" or "one who has crossed over" or "a passer-by". This implies that before Abram was born there were NO Hebrews as we know them, nor could there have been a language used by those who did not exist. Abraham was a Mesopotamian closely connected with the Aramean people, if not an Aramean himself.

Jacob, for sure was an Aramean being that he is the descendant of his mother Rivka the Aramean and later married the daughter of Laban the Aramean, therefore making all 12 tribes descendants of Aramean stock. This fact is biblically irrefutable. Even the Torah testifies to this fact (see Deut 26:5). It is logically consistent, therefore to state that Arameans SPEAK Aramaic!

Now therefore, since it has been established that ethnically, the patriarchs were Aramean, they are referred to as "Hebrews" being that they have departed from their ancestral homeland, adopting the identity as "Hebrews" or to put in our vernacular "Immigrants". Abraham actually BECAME a "Hebrew". This term was probably first used by others to describe and identify these new sojourners in Canaan (see Gen 14:13). At this point in time, Hebrew as a language did not exist, the patriarchs continued to speak their native Mesopotamian mother tongue being either Akkadian or Aramaic.

As these Arameans, first Abraham, then Isaac and Jacob, became isolated in Canaan, their language began to differ from those living in the center of Aramaic speaking in their homeland. Their speech began to take on a distinctly "Hebrew or immigrant" style.

Hundreds of years in Egypt solidified "Hebrew" as a distinct language as they adopted words from their neighbors such as from Canaan, Ugarit and Egypt into their vocabulary.

By the time of the Exodus, the Israelites spoke a language distinct enough for there to have emerged from Egypt a language substantially different from their Aramaic speaking counterparts in Aram and Mesopotamia.

It is inconsistent and illogical to think that the first Hebrew or "Immigrant" spoke the "Immigrant" language before the first "Immigrant" actually did the "immigrating" that made him the first "Immigrant/Hebrew"

Now to suggest that Adam who is not even considered a "Hebrew" by anyone would have spoken Hebrew 2000 years before the first Hebrew became a Hebrew is preposterous!

Before I get accused of being anti-semitic, anti-Jewish or anti-Hebrew, I am neither a gentile nor an Assyrian. I am neither a convert to Judaism nor a self-proclaimed Israelite, rather I am a native born, rabbinically raised, Sepharadic Jew descendent from Jews of the Mediterranean/middle-eastern area, now a follower of Yeshua M'shikha.

Dean Dana


>Avraham, like Adam, spoke Hebrew
>
>
>Trimm

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9. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-18-2001 at 11:50 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 

No one is claiming that it was CALLED Hebrew whan Adam spoke it. That would be silly and obviously anachronistic.

Trimm

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11. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-19-2001 at 00:14 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
James,

So when Abram spoke Hebrew it wasnt called Hebrew? Was this "uncalled Hebrew" spoken by anyone else? Say his father or mother or neighbors in Chaldea or Beth Naharin? Did they also speak this "uncalled Hebrew"? Did "uncalled Hebrew" coexist with other semitic languages?

Dean Dana

PS: I'm not trying to be funny. I'm really trying to understand your position


>No one is claiming that it
>was CALLED Hebrew whan Adam
>spoke it. That would
>be silly and obviously anachronistic.
>
>
>Trimm


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13. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-19-2001 at 00:31 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
>James,
>
>So when Abram spoke Hebrew it
>wasnt called Hebrew? Was
>this "uncalled Hebrew" spoken by
>anyone else?

Yes. YHWH, Chava (Eve) and everyone else prior to Gen. 11.

>Say his father
>or mother

His father or mother?

Are we talking about the same Adam?

>or neighbors in
>Chaldea or Beth Naharin?
>Did they also speak this
>"uncalled Hebrew"? Did "uncalled
>Hebrew" coexist with other semitic
>languages?

After Gen. 11 yes.

>
>Dean Dana
>
>PS: I'm not trying to
>be funny. I'm really trying
>to understand your position
>
>
>
>>No one is claiming that it
>>was CALLED Hebrew whan Adam
>>spoke it. That would
>>be silly and obviously anachronistic.
>>
>>
>>Trimm


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14. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-19-2001 at 01:07 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #13
 

>>Say his father
>>or mother
>
>His father or mother?
>
>Are we talking about the same
>Adam?

Nop, I was talking about Avram!

Dean Dana

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16. RE: Infinitives section of grammar complete.

Mar-20-2001 at 08:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
>No one is claiming that it
>was CALLED Hebrew whan Adam
>spoke it. That would
>be silly and obviously anachronistic.
>
>
>Trimm

If it wasnt called Hebrew than how can you be sure it WAS Hebrew. Once you ignore the name of the language and the source of the language and people, anyone is free to claim any language as the original!

So according to you, Abram, since he is called a Hebrew just happened to speak same language that later was to be referred to as Hebrew. So Hebrew isnt actually Hebrew. It predates all actual Hebrew people yet is the original yet after Gen 11 was only spoken by those called "Hebrews"???

If it was the original language, I'm sure it would have been a far more popular language than one only spoken by 600,000 men leaving Egypt?? Why has the original language (if it was in fact Hebrew) only spoken (ever) by a very small minority of inhabitants of the Levant? No other nation ever in the history of the world has had Hebrew as its national language but Israel and Judah, yet according to you, it was the original language??

With all due respect, your theory is so utterly unfounded that it defies logic and is not grounded on any facts.

Dean Dana

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