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Justified by her children....?.#.!!!

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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Justified by her children....?.#.!!!

Jun-11-2001 at 05:06 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama l'Kulkhon,

As far as textual variants go, this one has caused major headaches for most New Testament 'scholars.'

In the Greek of Luke 7:35, we read with astonishment:

"But wisdom is vindicated by her children. (Gr. Teknon)"

While in the Greek of Matthew 11:19 (the parallel passage), we read:

"But wisdom is vindicated by her deeds. (Gr. Ergon)"

Wow. No 'scholar' of the NT will be able to explain to you why this variant exists. Believe me, I've searched and I've asked, to my amazement they still don't "get" it.

Why? Because they are not taught Aramaic in school! Because even if they were, the explanation would require them to admit that Greek Luke is a translation from Aramaic Luke. That's the bottom line.

Here's the evidence:

In the Aramaic of the Peshitta version of Luke, the word used is hynb (#3234 - NOTE: The Lexical Concordance is incorrect, it erroneously lists the root as 0rb when in reality, it is 0nb (# 23860 "to build".)

What is the significance of this root, 0nb ('to build, works, etc.') ????

hynb was confused by the Greek translators of Luke for Ynb (#3231) which means 'son, children, offspring!" They thought the ending 'Heh' h indicated possession (see Table 1 Grammar section "Possessive Pronouns"), and that the root was Ynb, when in reality the root is 0nb with the ending 'Alaph' 0 dropped and the "Yodh-Heh" hy ending indicating possession (see Table 2 in Grammer section "Posessive Pronouns".)

There you have it! A simple mistake that every beginner makes in Aramaic has caused this variant reading!

So the reading should not be "Wisdom is vindicated by her children" but "Wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

Proof, you ask?

Check out Matthew 11:19 - the parallel passage, where Matthew used the more specific Aramaic word for "deeds" - hydb9 (#15080).

So the Greek translator(s) of Aramaic Luke mistranslated hynb as "children", when it should have been "deeds."

Don't be fooled into thinking that Luke himself made this mistake. It's easy to tell that Luke himself wrote in Aramaic and it was initially correct. How can we know this?

Because the Greek manuscripts themselves disagree concerning this reading! It is a mark of translation.

The following Greek versions contain the correct reading - S, B, W, and f13, while the erroneous reading is contained in - B2 C D K L X Delta Theta Pi f1 28 33 565 700 892 1010 and, not surprisingly, BOTH of the so-called "Old-Syriac" manuscripts (Cureton & Sinaitic.)


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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Iakov
 
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1. RE: Justified by her children....?.#.!!!

Jun-12-2001 at 02:55 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akh Paul,

>In the Greek of Luke 7:35,
>we read with astonishment:
>
>"But wisdom is vindicated by her
>children. (Gr. Teknon)"
>
>While in the Greek of Matthew
>11:19 (the parallel passage), we
>read:
>
>"But wisdom is vindicated by her
>deeds. (Gr. Ergon)"
>
>Wow. No 'scholar' of the
>NT will be able to
>explain to you why this
>variant exists. Believe me,
>I've searched and I've asked,
>to my amazement they still
>don't "get" it.

I get it. I was once told by a preacher, if a saying is good once it will be again later.
The pericope means the same thing in both Gospels. "Wisdom is proved right by its offspring" Whether 'children or one's works'. I recall Luke saying he did a number of interviews. If we were to all witness the same accident we would focus on different details. So if they saying did occur in a different context but was remembered in this one by Luke's eyewitness so be it. Regardless children works very well here considering the previous references.
>
>Why? Because they are not
>taught Aramaic in school!
>Because even if they were,
>the explanation would require them
>to admit that Greek Luke
>is a translation from Aramaic
>Luke. That's the bottom
>line.
>
>Here's the evidence:
>
>In the Aramaic of the Peshitta
>version of Luke, the word
>used is >size="5"]hynb (#3234 - NOTE: The
>Lexical Concordance is incorrect, it
>erroneously lists the root as
>0rb when
>in reality, it is >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5"]0nb (# 23860
>"to build".
)

It is honorable to admit error.
>
>What is the significance of this
>root, 0nb
>('to build, works, etc.') ????
>
>
>hynb was confused
>by the Greek translators of
>Luke for >size="5"]Ynb (#3231) which means 'son,
>children, offspring!" They thought
>the ending 'Heh' indicated possession (see
>Table 1 Grammar section "Possessive
>Pronouns"), and that the root
>was Ynb,
>when in reality the root
>is 0nb
>with the ending 'Alaph' >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5"]0 dropped and
>the "Yodh-Heh" >size="5"]hy ending indicating possession (see
>Table 2 in Grammer section
> "Posessive Pronouns".)
>
So if I understand you correctly bnyah could in no way ever mean 'sons of it'?

Also where else in PNT is bnyah used to refer to deeds or works?

Doesn't bnyah when used refer to structures or buildings?

>There you have it! A
>simple mistake that every beginner
>makes in Aramaic has caused
>this variant reading!

Akh Paul are you saying this is a variant in PNT?


>So the reading should not be
>"Wisdom is vindicated by her
>children" but "Wisdom is vindicated
>by her deeds."
>
>Proof, you ask?
>
>Check out Matthew 11:19 - the
>parallel passage, where Matthew used
>the more specific Aramaic word
>for "deeds" - (#15080).
>
>So the Greek translator(s) of Aramaic
>Luke mistranslated >size="5"]hynb as "children", when it
>should have been "deeds."
>
That would be unusual as we all know Matthai wrote first and the translator would have Matthai's document as reference.

>Don't be fooled into thinking that
>Luke himself made this mistake.
> It's easy to tell
>that Luke himself wrote in
>Aramaic and it was initially
>correct. How can we
>know this?
>
>Because the Greek manuscripts themselves disagree
>concerning this reading! It
>is a mark of translation.

>The following Greek versions contain the
>correc Bt reading - S, B,
>W, and f13
, while the
>erroneous reading is contained in
>- B2 C D K
>L X Delta Theta Pi
>f1 28 33 565 700
>892 1010
and, not surprisingly,
>BOTH of the so-called "Old-Syriac"
>manuscripts (Cureton & Sinaitic.)
>
To be completely honest we must also include the Matthai variant which I also consider a gloss as the one above...

Matt. 11:19-ms B2 C D L theta f1 M lat sy schmg. sa(mss) mae.

reads - 'ton teknon' - 'the children'

and one ms even glosses it more by adding 'panton ton ergon' (aleph B W pc) just so the all is included in each saying.

So the gloss goes both ways not just to conform to Matt but also to Luke.

Shlama,
Iakov.

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Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
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2. Need help with this one!

Jun-12-2001 at 08:20 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama kulkhon

I actually have a question about this one too...and on this one occasion I think I want to play devil's advocate. It's not that I disagree with Paul on this, but I cannot help but think of another possibility in my head. As a result, I want to improve this evidence by having Paul deal with my question even if by asking it allows the other side to have more ammunition.

OK here it is:

"Wisdom calls aloud in the in the street, she raises her voice in public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech:'How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and folls hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke I would have poured my heart out to you and made my thoughts known to you. But since you have rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored my advice and would accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you, when calamity overtakes you like a storm...but whoever listens to me will live in safety and be at ease without fear of any harm."

Proverbs 1:20-27,33

Here wisdom is personified as a woman, and indeed the attribute of WISDOM has a female construction in Hebrew, and is a feminine quality in as a sefirah in Jewish mysticism.

If we drash this verse in Proverbs out to Isaiah 66:7-13, God compares Himself to a mother comforting her children, and WISDOM is an attribute and a "spirit" that definitely comes from God, (Isaiah 11:1-2).

So, could this be what Luke is referring to or could this Jewish female personification of wisdom had at least played a role in the confusion of the texts?

What thinkest thou, Paul?

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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4. RE: Need help with this one!

Jun-12-2001 at 10:38 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Andrew,

Very true, and in fact in Aramaic the word Fmkx is a feminine construction as well. That's why in this teaching, Maran refers to "her" deeds.

I am more of a fan of literal translation within a given context, although drashing definitely has it's place.

In this instance, however, please refer to my reply to Akhi Iakov. I think the evidence is strong that the variants exist in the various Greek manuscripts because of a confusion between these two Aramaic roots.

Look at Lamsa's translation - he got it right, while Victor got it wrong. It's a very easy mistake to make. The words, being inflected this certain way, just happen to be spelled the same.

It makes more sense that Wisdom has "deeds" or "results" rather than "children" or "offspring."

The Peshitta verses agree, while the Greek manuscripts show a 'struggle' back and forth. This can be explained by the confusion resulting from the term hynb


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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3. RE: Justified by her children....?.#.!!!

Jun-12-2001 at 09:52 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Last edited by Paul Younan on Jun-12-2001 at 09:54 AM (CT)

Shlama Akha Iakov,

You said:
Regardless children works very well here considering the previous references.

Yes, exactly..it does. That's why I think the mistake was made. They had "children" on their mind from the previous reference, and when they saw hynb they immediately thought "Teknon"!

You said:
It is honorable to admit error.

It's not that honorable, it's not my Lexicon, but one made by the Way International Research Team. I just put it online.

You said:
So if I understand you correctly bnyah could in no way ever mean 'sons of it'?

It absolutely can and does mean 'sons of it.' That's exactly what led to the error.

Let me explain a little more fully:

Let's start off with the two roots in question:


  • 0nb "Bna" - As a Verbal root it means To build, To work, as a noun (i.e., Binyan, Bnaya, etc.) it means Building, Work, etc.
  • Ynb "Bnay" - means Offspring

Root 1

Using root 1, 0nb , if you wanted to say 'Her work, her build(ing), etc.' - following the rules of Table 2 in the Possessive Pronoun section of the Grammar - the ending 0 is dropped and a 3rd-person feminine suffix of hy is appended.

You now have hynb - "Her works, deeds, build(ing), etc."

Root 2

Using root 2, Ynb , if you wanted to say 'Her offspring' - following the rules of Table 1 in the Possessive Pronoun section of the Grammar - a 3rd-person feminine suffix of h is appended.

You now have hynb - "Her offspring."

Conclusion.

BOTH words just happen to be spelled the same way by chance!

This is the problem the translators of Luke had!

This word can mean either one, but I think it is clear from Matthew that the real reading is "deeds" (see Payne Smith, a Compendious Syriac Dictionary, and also compare the translation by Dr. George Lamsa.)

Which leads to your next question, you said:

To be completely honest we must also include the Matthai variant which I also consider a gloss as the one above...

Yes, but the oldest Greek manuscripts have the 'works' reading, and they are the ones used by the ASV, RSV, NASV, NIV, NEB, and TEV versions.

It is most likely changed in later Greek copies of Matthew to be the same as in the parallel passage in Luke 7:35.

Bottom line is, the mere fact that these variants exist in the Greek, and that they can be explained with reference to the confusion of the 2 roots above, is powerful proof that Greek Luke was translated from Aramaic Luke.

IS there a variant in the Peshitta - being the words used? Sure, but at least the two words mean the same thing. Both mean 'Deeds.'


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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