Assyrian Forums
 Home  |  Ads  |  Partners  |  Sponsors  |  Contact  |  FAQs  |  About  
 
   Holocaust  |  History  |  Library  |  People  |  TV-Radio  |  Forums  |  Community  |  Directory
  
   General  |  Activism  |  Arts  |  Education  |  Family  |  Financial  |  Government  |  Health  |  History  |  News  |  Religion  |  Science  |  Sports
   Greetings · Shläma · Bärev Dzez · Säludos · Grüße · Shälom · Χαιρετισμοί · Приветствия · 问候 · Bonjour · 挨拶 · تبریکات  · Selamlar · अभिवादन · Groete · التّحيّات

John 3:15

Archived: Read only    Previous Topic Next Topic
Home Forums Peshitta Topic #525
Help Print Share

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

John 3:15

Jun-12-2001 at 02:27 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama l'Kulhon Bnay Alaha,

There are two sections of the Grammar you will need to reference in order to appreciate this example.

In the Proclitic Section of the Grammar, the Proclitic B is introduced. You will notice that the particle when attached to the beginning of the word means "By, Into, In, Inside, etc."

In the Enclitic Pronoun Section of the Grammar, the Enclitic Pronoun hb is explained. You will notice that it is simply the Proclitic B with a h appended to signify the 3rd-person masculine - "In him, by him, through him, on him, etc."

Let us examine the Aramaic version of John 3:15 -

hb Nmyhmd $nlkd (So that everyone who believes in Him)
db0n f (not will perish)

The key to this example is, of course, the highlighted hb (In Him, though Him, on him, into him, etc.)

If the various Greek manuscripts of Yukhanan's Gospel were translation from the Aramaic version of Yukhanan, we would expect that they would vary in their exact translation of this Enclitic, and in fact they do.

The following Greek manuscripts translate it "In Him": p75, B, W, 083 0113

The following translate it "On Him": p63vid, p66, A, L

And the following translate it "Into Him": S, K, Delta, Theta, Pi, Psi, 086, f1, f13, 28, 33, 565, 700, 892, 1010, 1241

Don't these variants in the Greek manuscripts suggest an underlying written Aramaic original?

If Yukhanan was writing in Greek, wouldn't he have chosen one of the three ways to translate Mshikha's Aramaic word hb ?

How did this become three different readings in the Greek, if it was originally written in Greek?


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Print Top

 
Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic
Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
Send email to Andrew Gabriel RothSend private message to Andrew Gabriel RothView profile of Andrew Gabriel RothAdd Andrew Gabriel Roth to your contact list
 
Member: Sep-6-2000
Posts: 384
Member Feedback

1. RE: John 3:15

Jun-12-2001 at 02:47 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
THAT'S A KEEPER!!!!!!!!!!

LIKE MY 76ERS, IT'S A SCORE IN THE HOOP!

BTW AKHI KHABIBA---


Did you notice the word play in the very next line? Very nice pun, yes?

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Print Top
Stephen
 
Send email to StephenSend private message to StephenAdd Stephen to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

4. Yukhanan 3:16-Word Play

Jun-12-2001 at 04:19 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Sh'lama Akhi Andrew:
Stephen Silver wrote:
The unique "word-play" in Yukhanan 3:16, is between 0nl9l "world", and Ml9ld "eternal". This is exactly the Hebraic thought of okug "olam", "Ayin-Lamed-Vav-Mem", "eternity/world". I have used the "Drogulin Font", for the Hebrew.

Fkrwbw 0ml4
Stephen Silver

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

5. RE: Yukhanan 3:16-Word Play

Jun-12-2001 at 04:23 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Shlama Akhay Stephen w'Andrew,

Thanks for filling me in - I never saw that, otherwise I would have made a footnote to it. I've been scratching my head since you posted this.

Beautiful example, Andrew.


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top
Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
Send email to Andrew Gabriel RothSend private message to Andrew Gabriel RothView profile of Andrew Gabriel RothAdd Andrew Gabriel Roth to your contact list
 
Member: Sep-6-2000
Posts: 384
Member Feedback

7. RE: Yukhanan 3:16-Word Play

Jun-12-2001 at 04:43 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
So, I'm not the only one who has a second edition to work on at some point?

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

8. RE: Yukhanan 3:16-Word Play

Jun-12-2001 at 04:51 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Second edition? Buddy, you're gonna be working on that book for the rest of your life! Our work has just begun.

If Kaylen ever gets on a regular schedule , I'll be able to continue on edition 1 of my work!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top
Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
Send email to Andrew Gabriel RothSend private message to Andrew Gabriel RothView profile of Andrew Gabriel RothAdd Andrew Gabriel Roth to your contact list
 
Member: Sep-6-2000
Posts: 384
Member Feedback

6. RE: Yukhanan 3:16-Word Play

Jun-12-2001 at 04:41 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Last edited by Andrew Gabriel Roth on Jun-12-2001 at 04:45 PM (CT)

EXACTLY AKHI STEPHEN!

"cosmos" may be a really cool book by Carl Sagan but it is a poor substitute for the Aramaic, take my LOGOS for that. Actually...KEEP MY LOGOS AND I'LL STICK WITH MILTHA.

Now let's think about the profundity of this in Jewish prayer. Every major prayer starts out the same:

BARUCH ATA ADONAI ELOHAYNU MELECH HA OLAM (LAHLAM)

Blessed are You O LORD our God, King of the Universe...

And how do many of these prayers-- especially the Aramaic ones-- end?

Is it not:

LAHLAM AL-MEEN AW-MAYN

Forever and ever amen

And what does our Rabbi always say even in regular speech? Is it not:

AW-MAYN, AW-MAYN. (Kind of beats the @*$Q% out of "Verily, verily I say unto thee" doesn't it?)

So the LAHLAM is not forever and shall pass away, but those who believe in Meshikha have LAHLAM KHAYA (eternal life) because the TRUTH (AW-MAYN=TRULY) has set us free-- at least those of us who know and accept the sacrifce do.

That's the great thing about Meshikha Y'shua-- even when he isn't praying-- he is.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Print Top
Iakov
 
Send email to IakovSend private message to IakovAdd Iakov to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

2. RE: John 3:15

Jun-12-2001 at 03:29 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akh Paul,
>
>>Let us examine the Aramaic version
>of John 3:15 -
>hb >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5"]Nmyhmd $nlkd (So
>that everyone who believes >color="#308080"]in Him)
>db0n f (not
>will perish)
>
>The key to this example is,
>of course, the highlighted >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5" color="#308080"]hb (In
>Him, though Him, on him,
>into him, etc.)
>
>If the various Greek manuscripts of
>Yukhanan's Gospel were translation from
>the Aramaic version of Yukhanan,
>we would expect that they
>would vary in their exact
>translation of this Enclitic, and
>in fact they do.
>
>The following Greek manuscripts translate it
>"In Him": p75, B, W,
>083 0113

>
>The following translate it "On Him":
>p63vid, p66, A, L
>
>
>And the following translate it "Into
>Him": S, K, Delta, Theta,
>Pi, Psi, 086, f1, f13,
>28, 33, 565, 700, 892,
>1010, 1241

>
>Don't these variants in the Greek
>manuscripts suggest an underlying written
>Aramaic original?
>
>If Yukhanan was writing in Greek,
>wouldn't he have chosen one
>of the three ways to
>translate Mshikha's Aramaic word >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5" color="#308080"]hb ?
>
>
>How did this become three different
>readings in the Greek, if
>it was originally written in
>Greek?

NOW you have something. I want to look at the variants myself and look at their history. I do not give alot of credibility to much in the textus receptus and you quoted in previous posts but this example has teeth.

Oh yeah good pun on B'nay in your greeting; refering back to your Luke 7:35 post?

Shlama,
Iakov.

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

3. RE: John 3:15

Jun-12-2001 at 04:08 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Iakov,

I'm glad you noticed and enjoyed the pun. I meant 'sons' and not 'creation', though.

Let me know what you think of the Yukhanan 5:1 post.


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top

Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic


Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

Please consider the environment when disposing of this material — read, reuse, recycle. ♻
AIM | Atour: The State of Assyria | Terms of Service