Assyrian Forums
 Home  |  Ads  |  Partners  |  Sponsors  |  Contact  |  FAQs  |  About  
 
   Holocaust  |  History  |  Library  |  People  |  TV-Radio  |  Forums  |  Community  |  Directory
  
   General  |  Activism  |  Arts  |  Education  |  Family  |  Financial  |  Government  |  Health  |  History  |  News  |  Religion  |  Science  |  Sports
   Greetings · Shläma · Bärev Dzez · Säludos · Grüße · Shälom · Χαιρετισμοί · Приветствия · 问候 · Bonjour · 挨拶 · تبریکات  · Selamlar · अभिवादन · Groete · التّحيّات

John 12:12

Archived: Read only    Previous Topic Next Topic
Home Forums Peshitta Topic #529
Help Print Share

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

John 12:12

Jun-12-2001 at 05:25 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama Akhay,

Another example of the definite/indefinite article being translated differently.

The word here is "crowd" 04nk

The manuscripts which translate it "A crowd" are: S, A, D, K, W, X, Delta, Pi, Psi, f1, 28, 565, 700, 892, 1010, 1241

The manuscripts which translate it "THE crowd" are: p66, B, L, Theta, f13


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top

 
Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic
Iakov
 
Send email to IakovSend private message to IakovAdd Iakov to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

1. RE: John 12:12

Jun-14-2001 at 09:04 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Paul,,
>
Another example of the definite/indefinite article
being translated differently.
>
>The word here is "crowd" >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5"]04nk

>The manuscripts which translate it "THE
>crowd" are: p66, B, L,
>Theta, f13

There's that bad boy p66 again. I think the confusion for the corruption this time is between the crowd of v 9 and the one in v 12. These pilgrims are no doubt the Y'hudis of v. 9 and the p66 wants to make sure of it.

Also akh Paul in regard to the plural/singular issue here. All Gr. texts show singular 'crowd' whereas 'kansha' can only be 'kanshe' right,
Since the adjective 'sgiye' is plural?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4
bwq9y

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

2. RE: John 12:12

Jun-15-2001 at 09:41 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Iakov,

Fill me in about p66 - what's the story behind that manuscript?

And yes, you are correct - the sagiye is plural and so should "crowd" should be also!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top
Iakov
 
Send email to IakovSend private message to IakovAdd Iakov to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

3. RE: John 12:12

Jun-15-2001 at 08:24 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Paul,

>Fill me in about p66 -
>what's the story behind that
>manuscript?

p66-or Papyrus 66 is what textual scholars call a 'free text' as opposed to a 'strict text' or a 'normal text'.

Mss in this category exhibit the greatest degree of variance from other groups of texts. Many of its variances are said to be early glosses as this papyrus dates from 150 CE.


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

bwq9y

Print Top
Samuel
 
Send email to SamuelSend private message to SamuelAdd Samuel to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

4. RE: John 12:12

Jun-16-2001 at 07:57 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Akhi Iacov:
Here is some information on the p66,p72,p75Bodmer Papyri (A.D. 2nd.-3rd. century):
The Most important discovery of the New Testament papyri since the Chester Beatty manuscripts was the acquition of the Bomer collection by the libarary of World Literature at Culagny, near Geneva.p66,dating from about 200A.D. or earlier, contains 104 leaves of John 1:1-6:11;6:35b-14:26 and fragments of about 40 other pages,John 14-21. the text is a mixture of the Alexanderi8an and Western types, and there are some twenty alterations between the lines that invariably belong to the Western family.^11 Metzerger,the Text of the New Testament.page 40. From A General Introduction to the Bible by Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix (Moody Press) ISBN#0-8024-2916-5 PAGE 390. This was one of my text books for Biblical Criticism, that's how I have a copy. I hope this answers your questions. Shlama W'Berkhata,Sam

Print Top
Iakov
 
Send email to IakovSend private message to IakovAdd Iakov to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

5. RE: John 12:12

Jun-16-2001 at 03:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Todah Akhi Shmuel,

But I didn't have a question about p66.

However Akhi Paul I have an address for you to see an example of the early papyri and a comment.

http://www.earlham.edu/~seidti/iam/interp_mss.html

This is an image of p66 John 1. Now this is a what if example of an error that has occurred in
uncial mss as p66 in in Gr uncial where there is no space between words.

legend
E=epsilon
N=nu
A=alpha
R=rho
X=khi
H=eta
O=omicron
L=lamda
S=sigma
`=rough breath mark

The mss reads "EN ARXH HN `O LOGOS.."
IF a copyists dropped the eta from the verb 'to be' HN and the 'nu' became the ending of ARXH making a verb ENARXHN we could be looking at the phrase 'the Word began..' (although enarxhn would actually conjugate to enarksen)

The point is when copying to uncials and from uncials errors could occur.

Shlama,
Iakov

Print Top

Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic


Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

Please consider the environment when disposing of this material — read, reuse, recycle. ♻
AIM | Atour: The State of Assyria | Terms of Service