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An answer, please!

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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An answer, please!

Jun-20-2001 at 05:32 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama Akhay,

Akhi Iakov - this question is mainly addressed to you. I would really appreciate a one word answer, either yes or no. The reason is, I want to keep this thread on this one basic issue, we can always start other threads on other topics.

Is it possible, where the GNT/ANT have a reading which agrees with the LXX against all other known/surviving versions, that the GNT/ANT might be quoting whatever the LXX is quoting?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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Iakov
 
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1. RE: An answer, please!

Jun-20-2001 at 05:55 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Paul,

>Akhi Iakov - this question is
>mainly addressed to you.
>I would really appreciate a
>one word answer, either yes
>or no. The reason
>is, I want to keep
>this thread on this one
>basic issue, we can always
>start other threads on other
>topics.


>
>Is it possible, where the GNT/ANT
>have a reading which agrees
>with the LXX against all
>other known/surviving versions, that the
>GNT/ANT might be quoting whatever
>the LXX is quoting?

Yes.

Paul, please refer to my reply on the other thread. I realize this is an important issue.
Allow me to ask for a one word answer yes/no.

Is it POSSIBLE Luke is quote LXX?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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2. RE: An answer, please!

Jun-20-2001 at 06:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Last edited by Paul Younan on Jun-20-2001 at 06:01 PM (CT)

Shlama Akhi Iakov,

Yes.

Now, since we've both admitted that either scenario is possible, I would like to explain why I feel the former is more likely - I just can't do it right now since I am very busy at work today.

I will respond again on this thread in the morning - thanks for your reply.


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3. RE: An answer, please!

Jun-20-2001 at 07:35 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Paul,

>Now, since we've both admitted that
>either scenario is possible, I
>would like to explain why
>I feel the former is
>more likely - I just
>can't do it right now
>since I am very busy
>at work today.
>
>I will respond again on this
>thread in the morning -
>thanks for your reply.

Thanks that will be helpful. As I mentioned to Andrew I am taking some time away from work so I will be away from this addictive computer but I will read your mssg when I return.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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4. Example #1

Jun-21-2001 at 10:15 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Iakov,

I promised you an OT quote that has no support at all in any extant version.

Here is an OT quote by Luke himself:

Deuteronomy 18:15, 19 "15: The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; . . .19: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." (MSS & Peshitta Tanakh)

"15: The Lord thy God shall raise up to thee a prophet of thy brethren, like me; him shall ye hear: . . .19: And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in my name, I will take vengeance on him." (LXX)

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people."(Acts 3:22-23)

Acts 3:22-23 quotes Deuteronomy 18:15 and 19. This is a lengthy portion of Scripture, but demonstrates that Luke was not citing the LXX in Acts chapter 3. While the literal translations may be close, we are here examining the usage of the LXX in the Greek NT. The Greek of both is given below. If Luke were using the LXX we would expect the passage in Acts 3:22-23 to match the passage in Deuteronomy 18:15,19. One does not have to read Greek to see that the two passages are not a match.

LXX (Deut. 18"15: Propheten ek ton adelphon sou, os eme, anastnsei soi Kupios o Theos sou: autou akousesthe: . . .19:Kai o anthropos os ean me akouse osa an lalese o prophetes ekeivos epi to onomati mon, ego ekdiknso ek autou."

Greek NT (Acts 3"22: Oti propheten umin anastesei kupios o Theos umon ek ton adelphon umon, os eme: autou akousesthe kata panta osa an lalese pros umas. 23: estai de pasa psuxe etes an me akouse tou prophetou ekeinou exolothpeuthesetai ek tou laou."

For those who wish a literal translation of each Greek word, the following is provided:

LXX (Deut. 18"15: Propheten(Prophet) ek(out) ton adelphon sou(the brethren of you), os eme(like me), anastnsei soi(shall raise up) Kupios o Theos(the Lord God) sou(of you): autou(him) akousesthe(shall ye hear): . . .19:Kai(And) o anthropos(the man) os ean me akouse(if he shall not hear) osa an(whatsoever) lalese(he may say) o prophetes(the prophet) ekeivos(that person) epi to onomati mon(in the name of me), ego(I) ekdiknso(vengeance) ek autou(out of him)."

Greek NT (Acts 3"22: Oti propheten(A prophet) umin(to you) anastesei(will raise up) kupios o Theos(the Lord God) umon(your) ek(out of) ton adelphon(the brethren) umon(of you), os eme(like me): autou(him) akousesthe(shall ye hear) kata(in) panta(all things) osa an(whatsoever) lalese(he may say) pros(to) umas(you). 23: estai de(and it shall be) pasa(every) psuxe(soul) etes(which) an me akouse(may not hear) tou prophetou ekeinou (of that prophet) exolothpeuthesetai(shall be destoryed) ek(out) tou laou(of the people)."

What was he using here? This does not match the MSS, LXX, SMRTN, PT, or any extant Targum!

Isn't it possible that Luke was using a Targum which was unofficial and has not survived to today? Or maybe that he was using a Hebrew that was original to all these other versions, yet different from the MSS as we know it today?

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5. RE: Example #1

Jun-24-2001 at 10:33 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Paul,
This is an outstanding point and may relate back to my original question concerning Luke 3:36.
Keith

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6. RE: Example #1

Jun-24-2001 at 10:45 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama Akhi Keith,

It is meant to. I don't think that any of the modern OT versions, as we know them, where used by the authors of the NT.

I think they used either:


  • An un-official targum, in the Samaritan/Galilean dialect of Aramaic, that has not survived to the present time (we know these existed during that time)
  • An ancient pre-MSS Hebrew text (similiar to how the DSS differs from today's MSS in some aspects.)

I think the evidence points to one of these 2 being the possible explanation of why sometimes the NT seems to agree with LXX, other time Peshitta, and wildly enough, sometimes Targum Neofiti.

Think about it - did these guys own a scroll of all these different versions? If so, why not just use one? How wealthy were they, anyway, to own all these scrolls? It's not like the printing press was invented yet.

So I think we should refrain from saying:

This NT passage quotes the LXX/MSS/etc.

..and say instead:

This NT passage agrees with the LXX/MSS/etc.

What thinkest thou?

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7. RE: Example #1

Jun-25-2001 at 08:23 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Shlama U'Burkate Akh Paul,

Paul Wrote:
>I promised you an OT quote
>that has no support at
>all in any extant version.
>Here is an OT quote by
>Luke himself:

By Peter in a sermon . That is very important to note considering the degree of tolerance to which we may hold the fidelity of the quotation.

>"For Moses truly said unto the
>fathers, A prophet shall the
>Lord your God raise up
>unto you of your brethren,
>like unto me; him shall
>ye hear in all things
>whatsoever he shall say unto
>you. And it shall come
>to pass, that every soul,
>which will not hear that
>prophet, shall be destroyed from
>among the people."(Acts 3:22-23)

What version is this Akh Paul?


>Acts 3:22-23 quotes Deuteronomy 18:15 and
>19. This is a lengthy
>portion of Scripture, but demonstrates
>that Luke was not citing
>the LXX in Acts chapter
>3.

In fact Akh Paul it is a paraphrase of 15-19. It is in Gr anyway as verbal conjugations as sprinkled throughout the text. That is to say the Gr reconstruction here employs the aotist subjunctive, in a different verse than is listed here. The genitive absolute also is employed in a different verse again.

While the literal translations
>may be close,


Akh Paul can you give a literal translation of Acts 3:22.23 from PNT, please?


The way I would render it would be:

For Moshe said that the LORD will raise up a prophet for you (pl)(I know word order is out of line here) from your brothers, like me, listen to him in everything when he speaks with you (pl).

And it will happen that each soul who that (does) not listen to the prophet will be destroyed that soul from his people.


Please help me clean this up.

>>What was he using here?

He was paraphrasing as LXX sinilarities are found in somewhat different arrangement but its there.

Shlama,
Iakov.

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