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Grammar Example 1

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Grammar Example 1

Jul-11-2001 at 06:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama Akhi Stephen,

Please translate, very literally, the text of Mattai 17:21, provided here for reference.

Fwlcbw 0mwcb f0 Qpn f 0sng Nyd 0nh

When you do translate it, please make sure to be very literal, including words and particles that would be redundant in English.

If you choose to reference my Interlinear, please keep in mind that it has simplified certain things in order to be acceptable in English.

Also, if you don't mind, produce a format such as:

0nh - "This"

Nyd - "But"

0sng - "Kind"

Etc.....

Everything you need to accomplish this task is available through either the Lexicon, the Grammar, or Both.


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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Stephen Silver
 
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1. RE: Grammar Example 1

Jul-12-2001 at 07:50 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Sh'lama Akhi Paul:
Stephen Silver wrote:
I have begun to collect my "data", and my final post will be in a few days, because I want to do a thorough job.

Fkrwbw 0ml4
Stephen Silver

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2. RE: Grammar Example 1

Jul-12-2001 at 09:37 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Last edited by Paul Younan on Jul-12-2001 at 09:42 AM (CT)

Sounds great, Akhi.

I just realized that my statement about the Interlinear being incomplete for Mattai 17:21 was incorrect - it is exactly how you should translate it (including the redundant words), if you should so choose - but it would be better for our purposes to do it on your own.


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3. RE: Grammar Example 1

Jul-12-2001 at 04:09 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Sh'lama Akhi Paul:
Stephen Silver wrote:
Precisely. and that's why I want to take the time and check out the grammar, and the Lexicon, as well as "the Compendious Syriac Dictionary". I am determined to understand Aramaic Grammar, and be able to converse intelligently with you on the text.

Fkrwbw 0ml4
Stephen Silver

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4. RE: Grammar Example 1

Jul-12-2001 at 04:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Stephen,

If that is the case, then the examples (of which this is only the first) will really solidify your understanding of Ephesians 2:15.

I commend and encourage your effort.

There will be 2 more "requests" after you complete this one. Please take as much time as you feel is needed - what's important is, as you've noted, that you obtain this knowledge for yourself - not how quickly this is done.


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5. RE: Grammar Example 1

Jul-18-2001 at 02:31 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
MATTHEW 17:21

Paul Younan, in "The Interlinear Peshitta", has translated Matthew 17:21, like this.

does
go out...not....kind.....but.....this
Qpn 0l 0sng Nyd 0nh
and by prayer.by fasting.except
Fwlcbw 0mwcb 0l0

1)0nh From the ROOT 5252 Jh THESE, THIS. Pronoun, Masculine, Singular.
However, in the case, where the Lexeme 0nh is the same, the ROOT 5256 0nh it means, "profited". Verb, Masculine, Third Person, Singular. Perfect Tense, Peal Form.

2) Nyd from the ROOT, 4405, Nyd YET, BUT .Particle, Singular.
This word, also has the ROOT, 24372Jd JUDGE. Denominative, Masculine, First Person, Singular, Passive Participle, PEAL.

3) 0sng from the ROOT, 3941/42 0sng KIND, OFFSPRING. Noun, Masculine, Singular , Emphatic.

4)0l from the ROOT, 10878, 0l NO, NOT. Singular, Particle.

5) Qpn from the ROOT, 13402/3/4, 13431/37, 27480/81, Qpn CAST OUT, EJECT, EXORCISE. Verb, (Masculine, Feminine, Common,( First or Third Person), (Singular or Pleural, (Perfect or Imperfect), PEAL.

6)0l0 from the ROOT, 892, 0l0 BUT RATHER, BUT, Particle.

7) 0mwcb from the ROOT, 17647, Mc FAST, Noun. Masculine, Singular, Emphatic, PEAL.
The use of the PROCLITIC b means, IN, AT, BY, WITH. The best use, by the context of the verse, is BY.

8) Fwlcbw from the ROOT, 17763, 0lc PRAYER, Noun, Feminine, Singular, Emphatic, PEAL.

8a) The use of the PROCLITIC w means, AND, ALSO. Either could be used.

8b) The use of the PROCLITIC b means, IN, AT, BY, WITH. The best use, by the context of the verse, is BY.

This concludes the parsing of Matthew 17:21.


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6. RE: Grammar Example 1

Jul-18-2001 at 03:11 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama Akhi Stephen!

EXCELLENT!

Your analysis of the words - including the breakdown by number, gender and state, is complete and contains every element needed to translate the verse correctly.

Most important, for our purposes, is your very complete analysis of #7 and #8 - and this is indeed where I had hoped you would have spent most of your time and effort (Proclitics) - as this deals directly with the grammatical convention I would like for you to remember after we are done with this thread.

Next request - Paying particular attention to your treatment of #7 and #8, please translate 1 Corinthians 2:3, provided below for your reference:

Jwktwl tywh Fytrbw F0ygs Flxdb 0n0w

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7. I Corinthians 2:3

Jul-23-2001 at 09:26 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Sh'lama Akhi Paul:
Stephen Silver wrote:
This is the best I can do with "parsing". Here is my best translation of I Corinthians 2:3.

And I was toward you in fear and in much trembling.

INTERLINEAR
you toward.....was...and in trembling....much.........in fear.......and I
Jwktwl tywh Fytrbw F0ygs Flxdb 0n0w


1) 0n0w AND I, from the ROOT, 1375, 0n0...I, Pronoun, Common, First Person, Singular.
The PROCLITIC w AND, in text, makes reference to the previous "thoughts", from verses 1 and 2.
The HEBREW COGNATE is hbt "ANI", "I", first used in B'rayshit 6:17. This is the short form of hfbt "ANOKHI",(D'varim 5:6).
2) Flxdb IN FEAR, from the ROOT, 4340, lxd IN FEAR/AWE Noun, Feminine, Singular, Emphatic.
The PROCLITIC b IN, is used.
3) F0ygs MUCH, from the ROOT, 13935/6, 0gs MUCH/MANY Adjective, Feminine, (13935 Singular) or (13936 Pleural), Emphatic, PEAL.
4) Fytrbw AND IN TREMBLING, from the ROOT, 20316, tr TREMBLE, Noun, Common, Singular, Emphatic, PEAL. The PROCLITIC w AND, refers back to the previous word, while the PROCLITIC b IN is added to make Flxdb and to complete the Grammatically corrected phrase, IN MUCH FEAR AND IN TREMBLING.
5) tywh WAS, from the ROOT, 5103/4, 5145, 5148, 0wh WAS/TURN
6) Jwktwl TOWARD YOU, from the ROOT, 11143, twl TO,/TOWARD/AGAINST
From GRAMMAR SECTION 3c-POSSESSIVE PRONOUNS-SUFFIX Jwk Second Person, Masculine, Pleural.

Fkrwbw 0ml4
Stephen Silver

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8. Keepa 1:1

Jul-23-2001 at 10:59 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Shlama Akhi Stephen,

That's great and 100% accurate. The phrase, idiomatically, means "I was with you in fear and trembling."

So far, our two witnesses have been from Yeshua and from Rab Shaul -- for a third and final witness, let us examine a phrase from Keepa (1:1):

0btwtw 0ybgl 0xy4m (w4yd 0xyl4 Swr=p
0y=lgbw Sw=npb Ny9yrzd
0ynwtybbw 0ys0bw 0yqdwpqbw

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9. RE: Keepa 1:1

Jul-23-2001 at 05:05 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 

lwp yx0 0ml4

Keepa (1:1):


0btwtw 0ybgl 0xy4m (w4yd 0xyl4 Swr=p

Why did he transliterate "Petros" rather than use
Kepha?


bwq9y Fk^rwbw 0ml4


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10. RE: Keepa 1:1

Jul-23-2001 at 05:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
Shlama Akhi Iakov,

I don't remember him ever calling himself that. (Only others called him Keepa - he seems to have personally preferred "Shimon" or "Petros.")

Perhaps verses 2:4 through 2:8 in his Epistle explain his reluctance to use the term.


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11. RE: Keepa 1:1

Aug-08-2001 at 05:16 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #10
 
Sh'lama Akhi Paul:
Stephen Silver wrote:
Here is the third "parsing exercise".

KEEPA 1:1


and sojourners..to the chosen..Mashiakh ..of Yeshua...an emissary.....Petros
.0btwtw ....0ybgl...0xy4m...(w4yd....0xyl4...Swr=p

and in Galatia.....in Pontus......of the scattering
0y=lgbw...Sw=npb.....Ny9yrzd

and in Bithynia...and in Asia...and in Cappodocia
ynwtybbw...0ys0bw...0yqdwpqbw

1) Swr=p PETROS This is the Proper Name. Shimon was called, KEEPA, (Matthwew 4:18, and 10:2, Mark 3:16, Luke 6:14), however, he personally used, PETROS, to identify himself. 16544, Proper Noun.
2) 0xyl4 AN EMISSARY From the ROOT, Xl4 21371, SENT ONE, EMISSARY, Participle Adjective, Masculine, Singular Emphatic, PEAL.
3) (w4yd OF YESHUA, From the ROOT, (w4y 9568, YESHUA, The Proper Name of the Saviour. Proper Noun.
4) 0xy4m MESSIAH, From the ROOT, x4m 12523, ANOINTED, MASHIAKH. Participle, Adjective, Masculine, Singular, Emphatic, PEAL.
5) 0ybgl TO THE CHOSEN From the ROOT, 0bg (1) 3468, APPROVED, CHOSEN, ELECT. Particle Adjective, Masculine, Pleural Emphatic, PEAL. Or (2) 3457, EXACTOR, COLLECTOR, OFFICER. Noun, Masculine, Singular, Emphatic, PAEL. The PROCLITIC l 10853, TO, FOR, UPON. Particle. From the COMPENDIOUS SYRIAC DICTIONARY, The LEXEME 0ybg with the y YUD, makes the word, PERSONAL. However, since it is Petros, and not MASHIAKH, addressing them, it would be better translated as TO THE CHOSEN, rather than TO MY CHOSEN, (Just my personal opinion).
6) 0btwtw AND SOJOURNERS, from the ROOT, Bty, 9633, INHABITANT, SETTLER, SOJOURNER, STRANGER. Adjective, Masculine, Pleural, Emphatic, PEAL. The PROCLITIC w AND is used.
7) Ny9yrzd OF THE SCATTERING, from the ROOT, (rz] 24872, SOW, Verb, Masculine, First Person, Pleural, Pasive Particle, PEAL. The PROCLITIC d .
8) Sw=npb In PONTUS, from the ROOT, Sw=np 16841, PONTUS, Proper Noun. The PROCLITIC b IN, is used.
9) 0y=lgbw AND IN GALATIA from the ROOT, 0y=lg , 3825, GALATIA, Proper Noun. The PROCLITIC w AND is used. The PROCLITIC b IN, is used.
10) 0yqdwpqbw AND IN CAPODOKIA from the ROOT, 0yqdwpq , 18779, CAPPADOCIA, Proper Noun. The PROCLITIC w AND is used. The PROCLITIC b IN, is used.
11) 0ys0bw AND IN ASIA, from the ROOT, 0ys0 , 1577, ASIA , Proper Noun. The PROCLITIC w AND is used. The PROCLITIC b IN, is used.
12) 0ynwtybbw AND IN BITUNYA, from the ROOT, 0ynwtyb , 3404, BITHYNIA, Proper Noun. . The PROCLITIC w AND is used. The PROCLITIC b IN, is used.

Fkwbw 0ml4
rblys Nbyts

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12. Conclusion...

Aug-08-2001 at 11:09 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
Shlama Akhi Stephen,

Fantastic job on all three examples! I will line them up together below, and then explain the grammatical concept behind these examples.


  1. Fwlcbw 0mwcb f0 Qpn f 0sng Nyd 0nh
  2. Jwktwl tywh Fytrbw F0ygs Flxdb 0n0w
  3. 0xy4m (w4yd 0xyl4 Swr=p
    Ny9yrzd 0btwtw 0ybgl
    0ynwtybbw 0ys0bw 0yqdwpqbw 0y=lgbw Sw=npb

Notice the pattern bw....bw....bw....b

This is a very important grammatical rule in Aramaic (and, in Hebrew) - and that is that all nouns in a series are governed by the same preposition.

In this case, that preposition which governs all the nouns in these examples is the Proclitic B

Also, notice that if there is only 1 noun, and not a series, all that is needed is the B Proclitic, to "receive" the action of the verb or the attributes of the adjective which governs it.

However, when there is more than one noun (a series), then each subsequent noun must not only be governed by the same preposition (B) - but also that very same B must be preceeded with a w (And).

Therefore, the resulting meaning of bw....bw....bw....b is "with...and with....and with....and with" or "by....and by....and by....and by" or "in....and in....and in....and in", etc.

This is hard on the Western ear, due to the redundancy. Western languages, like English, have a preference to be concise and avoid repetitiveness. Eastern languages like Aramaic and Hebrew, on the other hand, prefer to be more complete and express thoughts that are considered superfluous by the West.

But this is an integral part of our speech, and our method of communication is not proper without it.

Any comments on this?


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13. RE: Conclusion...

Aug-08-2001 at 02:12 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #12
 
Shlama Paul,

Thanks for the grammar lesson. It was helpful.

Iakov.

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