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Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

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Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Jul-14-2001 at 08:16 AM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Hello, I am new here in this forum and I have a question: Where is the topic about the "ancient nazarenes and nestorians" It seems to have disappeared from the archive.
I would be thankful if anyone or anybody could show me the whole discussion of the topic...

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1. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Jul-17-2001 at 02:54 PM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Emanuel,

I don't recall the conversation and cannot find any specific thread in the archives.

Anything in particular I can search for?


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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2. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Jul-19-2001 at 11:54 AM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Paul,

Actually, I have a question according to the article about the "ancient nazarenes and nestorians" For me, it concerns a lot. I remember It was written in the article somewhere that the nestorians could be descendants of the jewish people. I dont say that I am against it, but I happen to be syrian orthodox (jacobite) and we as well the nestorians speak the syriac language. You maybe have heard about us, because I have seen that you are pretty involved in this. Anyway, me and my people are not so agree in our history, especially our past, of who we originally come from. So I ask you, Could it be true that our people are descendants of the jews. If you know something about this, I would be thankful......

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3. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Jul-19-2001 at 11:54 AM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Paul,

Actually, I have a question according to the article about the "ancient nazarenes and nestorians" For me, it concerns a lot. I remember It was written in the article somewhere that the nestorians could be descendants of the jewish people. I dont say that I am against it, but I happen to be syrian orthodox (jacobite) and we as well the nestorians speak the syriac language. You maybe have heard about us, because I have seen that you are pretty involved in this. Anyway, me and my people are not so agree in our history, especially our past, of who we originally come from. So I ask you, Could it be true that our people are descendants of the jews. If you know something about this, I would be thankful......

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4. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Jul-19-2001 at 12:41 PM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Emanuel,

There was an American Protestant Missionary, by the name of Asahel Grant, who spent years in the Hakkari mountains (during the 19th century) of modern-day Turkey among what he called the 'Nestorians', and he wrote a book called 'The Nestorians, or the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel.'

In this book, Dr. Grant writes a beautiful story about his years there and describes our mountains, villages and churches with all of our customs.

His main purpose in writing the book was to demonstrate his theory that the modern-day "Nestorians", who call themselves Assyrians ("Suryayeh/Ashurayeh") are really the descendants of the Northern Ten Tribes of Israel whom the King of Assyria placed in the mountains north of Nineveh.

According to Dr. Grant - the Patriarch Mar Shimun of the "Nestorians" claimed descent from the tribe of Naphtali, of the Northern tribes of Israel. I don't know how true that is, as it is only recorded by Dr. Grant - and the current Mar Shimun family makes no such claim.

Whether one chooses to believe his theory or not, it is a fascinating book for its historical value alone. It gives us a rare glimpse into the lives of the people back then, as well as the massacre of the Assyrians ("Nestorians")by the Kurdish tribal leader Bedr Khan Beg.

I have indeed heard about the Syrian Orthodox ("Jacobite") and indeed we are one people, not just one language. Whatever we choose to call ourselves ethnically, I believe we are one people with one blood.

Whether or not we are wholly, or in part, descended from the Assyrians, Arameans or the Israelites isn't really that important.....the Israelites through Abraham are Mesopotamians, anyway. So Assyrians, Arabs and Hebrews are the same people genetically and culturally they all belong to the land between the two rivers.

I'm sure some inter-marriage had occured between the Israelites of the Assyrian Captivity and the Assyrians themselves....we know the Jews during the Babylonian Captivity intermarried with those around them as well.

I believe there is no such thing as a 100% pure Assyrian or a 100% pure Hebrew or Arab. We are all from the same Semitic stock, anyway.

I choose to call myself 'Assyrian' because that's where my family has lived for centuries, from the mountains they could see the ruins of Nineveh....and every year, we celebrate "Bautha d'Ninewayeh (the Rogation of the Ninevites)" - as I believe you do, too.

The Ten Northern tribes of Israel, wherever and whoever they are, will one day realize it and rediscover their heritage. Prophecy speaks of the Houses of Apraem and Yehuda uniting. One day it will happen.

I'm not as sure as Dr. Asahel Grant was that we (all 'Syriacs') are them, though.

Also, about the 'Nazarenes.' They were Jewish believers in Mshikha who fled the Roman (Byzantine) Empire and came to Persia, where they found fellow Semitic believers in the "Church of the East." Since Persia then was not as active in persecuting believers as Rome was, they stayed there and became part of the "Church of the East."

After the Muslim conquest of Mesopotamia, the Patriarch of Babylon was always called 'Head of the Nazarenes' by the Arab Caliphs (See Dr. Wigram, "History of the Assyrian Church.)

So in Arabic, we are known as the "Nasriyn."

I believe we are Assyrians, though, check out the prophecy in Nahum 3:18 -

Thy shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria: thy nobles shall dwell in the dust: thy people is scattered upon the mountains, and no man gathereth them.

The only mountains north of Assyria/Nineveh are the Hakkari and Tur-Abdin mountain ranges.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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5. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Sep-04-2001 at 11:34 AM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Shlama Paul

Thank you for your informations. But I have still wonderings about our history. My deeply wonderings stays within the religion. The peshitta, for example. It is the accepted Bible of the Syrian christian churces. But...I have read that the earliest part have been written by jewish christians.

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6. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Sep-04-2001 at 10:21 PM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama Emanuel,

All of it (the Peshitta) was written by Jewish Christians. By that I mean Jews who believed in Jesus as the Messiah. Some were Jews both ethnically and in religion - others were Jews in religion only, but ethnically Assyrian (Syriac) - like Luke.

A large part of the population of Adiabene in Assyria was Jewish. Same thing with Edessa (Urhoy) and Babel.

Most of these "Jews", however, were not literally genetically Hebrew (descended from one of the 12 tribes). Most of them were genetically Assyrians or Babylonians who converted to Judaism.

Just like today, most of Iraqis are Muslim and call themselves Arabs. But they are not Arabs, genetically speaking. Arabs are from Saudi Arabia. Iraqis are genetically Assyrians and Babylonians.
But because they are Muslims, and because they dropped Aramaic and now speak Arabic, most of them consider themselves as 'Arabs' - but they are not Ishmaelites.

Same thing with the Maronites in Lebanon. Just 100 years ago they spoke Aramaic (Syriac.) Now, 100% of them speak Arabic and most of them call themselves 'Christian Arabs.' Again, they are not Arabs genetically - only in speech.

So our forefathers have practiced many faiths over the centuries. They worshipped in many different ways until they converted to Christianity 2,000 years ago - and 700 years after that the majority left their Christianity for Islam, to escape the sword. They adopted Arabic in place of Aramaic (Syriac.)

Before that, and especially after Yonan (Jonah) many of them were Jewish in faith only - I don't think genetically. Maybe some mixed into the population by force during the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities - but as a whole, the Jewish people (genetically linked to Isaac) tended not to intermarry with other nations, especially back then.

The last possibility, of course, is the most improbable - that we are, as Dr. Grant proposed, the 'Lost 10 tribes.'

If so and Dr. Grant was right, why did we forget who we are?

Why do we (both 'Nestorians' and 'Jacobites') keep Bautha d'Nineveh?

Too many questions are raised by his theory - more questions than are answered.


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Peshitta.org

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7. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Dec-19-2001 at 01:44 PM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama Paul

I have thought about this person Asahel Grant and saw somewhere in your writings that you
mentioned Asahel Grant in your discussion with James Trimm about the topic "Nazarene history", that you have a book about it and you wuld make a copy of it and put them in this website. I am quite interested too and I would like if possible a copy of the book or copies from it. One more thing. This person Grant, I can not find anything about him and his book about the Nazarenes. How many copies exist and where can I buy or borrow it?

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8. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Dec-19-2001 at 01:44 PM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama Paul

I have thought about this person, Asahel Grant and saw somewhere in your writings that you mentioned Asahel Grant in your discussion with James Trimm about the topic "Nazarene history", that you have a book about it and you would make a copy of it and put it into this website. I am quite interested too and I would like if possible a copy of the book or copies from it. One more thing. This person Grant, I can not find anything about him and his book about the nazarenes. How many copies exist and where can I buy or borrow it?

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9. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Dec-24-2001 at 10:07 AM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 
Shlama Emanuel,

I thought about scanning the book and putting it on this website but then I thought about the huge backlask I would be subject to by our people and how I would be ridiculed and decided not to do it.

You know how our people are fighting internally about our name and whether or not we are Assyrians or Chaldeans or Syriacs.

If I were to include another category ('Israelite'), or even look like I supported this theory by posting a book with this claim on the website - I would be crucified.

Email me at pyounan@peshitta.org with your postal address and I will mail you a copy of the book. But don't tell anyone it was me.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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10. RE: Ancient nazarenes and Nestorians

Dec-24-2001 at 10:58 PM (UTC3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
Shlama Paul

Thank you for your efforts and I understand what you mean. I am pretty aware about this conflict between our people. This can confuse our people. But even though I think Asahel Grant's theory is quite intresting about what he thought about our people, but dont missunderstand me, I am a true assyrian/suryoyo and I am proud about it but sometimes our history is complicated that can expose odd stuff that must have an explanation, like this about Grant. I am just curious.However I have hotmail so you can just Email me at akpinaremanue70@hotmail.com

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Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

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