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I've been Stepped On !

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I've been Stepped On !

Jan-31-2002 at 12:02 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama James,
I believe I've been "Stepped On."

An anonymous "concerned citizen" has passed the following information along to me. Geez - if I substitute a few words (Peshitta for Quran or the Book or Mormom, for instance) - I could swear this is the same approach you are using on this forum to divert attention away to your own biased agenda.

I think I've been "stepped on." From what I can tell - you're somewhere in between Phase 4 and Phase 5 with all of us here on this forum.

Am I wrong?


James Trimm <jstrimm@h...>
Date: Sat Jul 8, 2000 10:18am
Subject: Six Step Approach to Mormons


Six Steps to Approaching Mormons with Nazarene Judaism:
NOTE: Mormons and other "restorationists" as they call
themselves generally put more faith in the Book of Mormon
than the Bible. While they teach that many things were
editted out of the Bible and changed, they claim that the
Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth.
Therefore it can be helpful in the initial stages to establish
many points from the Book of Mormon "for arguments sake" prior to
weaning them off of the Book of Mormon. This is similar to
the approch to Moslems that initially uses the Quran to
establish certain points. However since Mormons are
Christians or at least para-Christians we still use a
variation of the five step approach.

PHASE ONE: PASSIVE "getting your foot in the door"

1. HEBRAIC ROOTS

In this step you show them that Hebraic Roots really
illuminate the meaning behind many NT passages. (Zola
Levitt kind of stuff) For example:

* the material in the Jewish New Testament
Commentary
relating to the Sukkot event of Yochanan 7 & 8.

* The rope through the eye of a needle.

* The Messiah in the biblical/Jewish feasts.

At this point do not present anything doctrinaly
challenging to Christendom & Mormonism.

RESOURCES: Most Hebraic Roots material out there.

BoM prooftext: 2Nephi 25:5

2. GENTILIZATION

In this phase you will demonstrate how the Hebraic
roots of the NT were lost as the faith became gentilized. The
grafted branches were not being fed by the root. Still no need
to doctrinally challenge Christendom. You may talk about
how Passover surplanted Easter but unless asked you need
not directly condemn Easter YET.

BoM prooftext: 1Ne. 13:21-29

3. RESTORATION

In this phase you will show how the original branches
become grafted back in. Jews come to Messiah in the
last days and restore the Hebraic roots. Still no need to
doctrinally challenge Christendom. Just take the
attitude of "isn't it nice that we have all of this illumination
now."

BoM prooftext: 2Nephi 25:5
___________________________________________________

PHASE TWO: AGRESSIVE "the close"

At this point review what you have covered so far but
recharacterize the "gentilization" and the loss of the Hebraic
roots as an apostasy (falling away).

4. FREEDOM IN TORAH - Now you will introduce a single
doctrinal casualty of the apostasy. You will show that

Christendom has recast the Torah as bondage and
Torahlessness as freedom. You will show them that the
Torah is freedom, truth, light etc. and that the Torah
is for today. You will expose the false teaching of ANOMOS =
Torahlessness.

RESOURCES: FREEDOM IN TORAH by Trimm and
MESSIAH VOLUME ONE by Avi ben Mordechai

BoM prooftext: 1Nephi 17:25 (in combination with the
above resources) 3Nephi 16:7 ("truth" = Torah Ps. 119:142,
151, 160)Use Avi's "definition system" outlined in Messiah
Volume 1 to define words like "truth" and "light" etc.

5. REVEALING THE TORAHLESS ONE - You NEVER
move to this step unless you have completed the first
four steps successfully. In this step you will expose the
other "Torahless" Jesus of Christianity and identify the
great Whore Babylon etc..

RESOURCES: My papers on the thunders; material on
Pagan Christendom on nazarene.net ant teshuvah.com and THE
TWO BABYLONS by Hislop.

6. WEANING THEM OFF THE BOOK OF MORMON - This
is really an extention of step five to some extent.
Using the test of a prophet found in the Torah (Deut. 13 & 18)
along with the problems with the Book of Mormon (and other
problems with Joseph Smith's other prophetic materials)
you may now wean them off of the Book of Mormon.

* Certain passages at least appear to be
anti-nomian:

"...you must keep the performances
and ordinances of God until the law shall be
fulfilled which was given to Moses."
- 2Nephi 25:30 (supposedly between 559 & 545
BC)
(see also Alma 30:3)

"...but I say to you, that the time shall come
when it shall no more be expedient
to keep the law of Moses."
- Mosiah 13:27 (sopposedly in 148 BC)

"...the law in me is fulfilled,
for I have come to fulfil the law;
therefore it has an end."
- 3Nephi 15:5 (supposedly quoying "Jesus")


"And they did not walk anymore after the
performances and ordinances of the law of Moses..."
- 4Nephi 1:12

"...the law of circumcision is done away in
me."
- Moroni 8:8 (supposedly quoting "Jesus")

* The book seems to depict traditional
Christian practices such as Communion (3Nephi
20:1-9)

* The Book of Mormon calls the followers of the
religion it depicts "Christians" supposedly as early as
73 BC (Alma 46:13-16).

* The BoM people supposedly came to the New
World and kept the law of Moses (2Ne. 25:24; Jarom
1:5; Mosiah 2:3; Alma 30:3; 34:14) they supposedly built a
Temple "after the manner of Solomon" (2Ne. 5:16) and made
offerings (1Ne. 5:9; 7:22; Mosiah 2:3) Now how could a
group of all Josephites (1Ne. 15:12; 19:24; 2Ne. 3:2-5;
Jacob 2:5 & Alma 26:36) do that without any Levites? Maybe
thay just did it theselves (1Nephi 2:7) and
appointed non-Levites as priests (2Ne. 5:26; Jacob 1:18)
but then who would say that a group of Josephites
who built their own Temple, performed their own
offerrings and appointed their own non-Levitical
priests...

"...did observe to keep the judgements,

and the statutes, and the commandments
of the Lord IN ALL THINGS ACCORDING TO THE LAW OF
MOSES" (2Ne. 5:10)?

Even IF the Lord had told them to do such
things would it not be WAY beyond the realm of truth to say
that they were done "according to the law of Moses"?

* Also why would a group which kept the law of
Moses in all things build various Temples in various
locations:

* "The Land of Nephi" (2Ne. 5:8, 16)

* "The Land of Zarahemla (Mosiah 1:18)

* "the Land Bountiful" (3Nephi 11:1)

And much of this time overlaps The Second
Temple Era. Compare Deut 12:21; 16:16 which teaches only
one Temple in one chosen place. How does that
work?

* While the book is longer than the NT and is
largely narative it never mentions a Jewish/Biblical
holiday by name. It also never mentions a newmoon
convocation, Nazarite vow etc. This is suspicious.

* Although its people supposedly kept the Law
of Moses until the time of "Christ" the book
places the death of "Christ" on the "the first month, on
the fourth day" (3Ne. 8:5) though this day would have been

Passover, the 14th day of the month on the
Biblical/Jewish calendar. In fact Passover
roughly coresponds with the full moon and would
be within a day of the 15th (on a newmoon based
calendar) or a day of the 1st (on any Fullmoon
based calendar) So not only is this supposed "BoM
calendar" not the Biblical newmoon calendar it could not
even be a lunar calendar at all.

James Trimm

Study Torah with SANJ Mitvah Club
http://www.nazarene.net/MitzvahClub.htm


This list provided by SANJ sponsors:
http://www.nazarene.net
SANJ is a non-profit organization

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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1. RE: I've been Stepped On !

Jan-31-2002 at 12:25 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 

Paul,

Absolutely not!

Text wise the difference between you (Paul) and I is that I think that the Old Syriac sometimes preserves a more original reading. I also believe that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew and that the Aramaic is a very literal Aramaic translation of that Hebrew. As for the books of Acts, James, 1Kefa, 1Yochanan and the Pauline Epistles we are of the same mind that the Peshitta is the best extant text of the original Aramaic.

I see NO COMPARISON between the Peshitta and the Book of Mormon.

I have NO DESIRE to turn anyone away from the Peshitta!

I revere the NT Peshitta in the same light as I revere the Masoretic text of the Tanak. I revere the Peshitta Tanak in much the same light as I revere the Dead Sea Scroll Biblical manuscripts.

I espouse the Aramaic technical terms for chritology and Godhead that you do as well.

Aramaic is one of the two closely related languages of my people.

Aramaic is the language of the Targums, the Talmuds, the Zohar and even parts of the Tanak. Aramaic is near to my heart as a Jew just as it is near to your heart as an Assyrian.

I have no alterior motives here but to study the Peshitta as a representative of the original Aramaic NT!

James Trimm

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2. Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 12:38 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Six Steps to Approaching Aramaic Christians with Nazarene Judaism:
NOTE: Assyrians and other "Semitic Christians" as they call
themselves generally put more faith in the Peshitta
than the Greek Bible. While they teach that many things were
editted and mistranslated in the Greek New Testament, they claim that the
Peshitta is the most correct book on earth.
Therefore it can be helpful in the initial stages to establish
many points from the Peshitta "for arguments sake" prior to
weaning them off of the Peshitta. This is similar to
the approch to Moslems that initially uses the Quran to
establish certain points. However since Assyrians are
Christians or at least para-Christians we still use a
variation of the five step approach.

PHASE ONE: PASSIVE "getting your foot in the door"

1. HEBRAIC ROOTS

In this step you remind them that Hebraic Roots really
illuminate the meaning behind many Aramaic NT passages. (Zola
Levitt kind of stuff) For example:

* the material in the Jewish New Testament
Commentary
relating to the Sukkot event of Yochanan 7 & 8.

* The rope through the eye of a needle.

* The Messiah in the biblical/Jewish feasts.

At this point do not present anything doctrinaly
challenging to Christendom.

RESOURCES: Most Hebraic Roots material out there.


2. GENTILIZATION

In this phase you will demonstrate how the Hebraic
roots of the NT were lost as the faith became gentilized. The
grafted branches were not being fed by the root. Still no need
to doctrinally challenge Christendom. You may talk about
how Passover surplanted Easter but unless asked you need
not directly condemn Easter YET. NOTE: I direct readers to your reply to Syriac's "Three Questions for Paul" post.


3. RESTORATION

In this phase you will show how the original branches
become grafted back in. Jews come to Messiah in the
last days and restore the Hebraic roots. Still no need to
doctrinally challenge Christendom. Just take the
attitude of "isn't it nice that we have all of this illumination
now."

PHASE TWO: AGRESSIVE "the close"

At this point review what you have covered so far but
recharacterize the "gentilization" and the loss of the Hebraic
roots as an apostasy (falling away).
NOTE: to all the readers - how many times has James done this with us on this forum?

4. FREEDOM IN TORAH - Now you will introduce a single doctrinal casualty of the apostasy. You will show that Christendom has recast the Torah as bondage and Torahlessness as freedom. You will show them that the Torah is freedom, truth, light etc. and that the Torah is for today. You will expose the false teaching of ANOMOS = Torahlessness.

RESOURCES: FREEDOM IN TORAH by Trimm and
MESSIAH VOLUME ONE by Avi ben Mordechai

Use Avi's "definition system" outlined in Messiah
Volume 1 to define words like "truth" and "light" etc.

NOTE: does this sound familiar to anyone here?

5. REVEALING THE TORAHLESS ONE - You NEVER
move to this step unless you have completed the first four steps successfully. In this step you will expose the other "Torahless" Jesus of Christianity and identify the great Whore Babylon etc..

RESOURCES: My papers on the thunders; material on
Pagan Christendom on nazarene.net ant teshuvah.com and THE
TWO BABYLONS by Hislop.

NOTE: People - we've been spared this step so far. I suppose we hadn't yet attained the level of "re-training" necessary for this VERY important step.

6. WEANING THEM OFF THE PESHITTA - This
is really an extention of step five to some extent.

NOTE: Thank God this plan was revealed before James reached this "phase" with us. Like - we would have been totally grateful for this and we would have fallen hook, line and sinker for it - cause like, we are like SOOO dumb ya know?

NOT.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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3. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 01:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 

I have never disguised my view that Nazarene Judaism was the religion of the original followers of Yeshua and that I believe Gentile Christendom as a new religion was the result of apostasy. Certainly I believe that.

But that does not make my espousal of the Peshitta non-sinsear nor does it indicate any desire to wean anyone off of the Peshitta. I am a huge promoter of the Peshitta for YEARS. I am as big of a promoter of the Aramaic NT as I am of the Torah. I am as big of a promoter of the Aramaic NT in general as you are of the Peshitta Aramaic NT in specific.

The Peshitta is almost as important perhaps as important to Nazarene Judaism as it is tio the CoE.

Trimm

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4. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 01:35 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
James,

Your agenda is well known and nobody here is "stoopid." This forum is dedicated to studying the Aramaic text of the Peshitta and not to furthering one's own theological agenda. I certainly don't - even though it's my website. You certainly are free to do and say whatever you'd like on your own website.

I don't use this website to attract converts to the Church of the East. In fact, I purposely avoid such discussions. And the people here can testify to that.

If I adhere to my own rules regarding this issue - I expect you to refrain from using this website as a launching pad to attract adherents to what I believe is a cult founded by someone who is in no way, shape or form who he says he is.

I don't believe you are a Jew of any flavor. I don't believe you have Jewish ancestry in you at all - as you falsely claim. And I certainly don't believe you hold a doctorate by any state or locally accredited school. No one would have given you a degree with how little you know in these topics. In other words - I think your doctorate is phony and is from a diploma-mill.

Am I wrong about any of the above ?

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5. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 02:12 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
>James,
>
>Your agenda is well known and
>nobody here is "stoopid."
>This forum is dedicated to
>studying the Aramaic text of
>the Peshitta and not to
>furthering one's own theological agenda.
> I certainly don't -
>even though it's my website.
> You certainly are free
>to do and say
>whatever you'd like on your
>own website.

OK I will abstain from theological discussins here. As for the post, I simply answred his question about Jewish practices compared to the CoE.

>
>I don't use this website to
>attract converts to the Church
>of the East. In
>fact, I purposely avoid such
>discussions. And the people
>here can testify to that.
>
>
>If I adhere to my own
>rules regarding this issue -
>I expect you to refrain
>from using this website as
>a launching pad to attract
>adherents to what I believe
>is a cult

I don't know that I was the founder... It was something of a gathering. For example Avi ben Mordechai had been teaching much the same thinms I had been and term,ing it Nazarene Judaism independantly and we met after the fact. I am not the founder and neither was he. there have always been Nazarene Jews.

>founded by
>someone who is in no
>way, shape or form who
>he says he is.

>
>I don't believe you are a
>Jew of any flavor.
>I don't believe you have
>Jewish ancestry in you at
>all - as you falsely
>claim.

I can't make you believe something. That has become obvious on many issues. None the less I have Jewish ancestory, have racticed Judaism since I was 14, am married to a Jewish girl the granddaughter of a holocaust survivor, we have five children who are the greatgandchildren of a holocaust survivor.

I cannot see myself as anything BUT a Jew.

> And I certainly
>don't believe you hold a
>doctorate by any state or
>locally accredited school. No
>one would have given you
>a degree with how little
>you know in these topics.
> In other words -
>I think your doctorate is
>phony and is from a
>diploma-mill.
>
>Am I wrong about any of
>the above ?
>
>Fk^rwbw 0ml4
>
> Peshitta.org


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6. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 02:57 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
>
>OK I will abstain from theological
>discussins here. As for
>the post, I simply answred
>his question about Jewish practices
>compared to the CoE.
>

NO - you never fail to take a swipe at the CoE or Christian theology in general. It's not just that post. It's a whole series of posts and behavior that makes me really believe you are practicing your "Six Steps" right here on this forum.

That sort of thing (the "Six Steps") is not welcome nor does it adhere to the purpose of this forum or website.

>
>I don't know that I was
>the founder... It was something
>of a gathering.
>

You certainly plaster your name with the word "Dr." all over there. A title which is FALSE.

No state-accredited university or theological school has EVER granted you a doctorate. I guarantee it.

> For
>example Avi ben Mordechai had
>been teaching much the same
>thinms I had been and
>term,ing it Nazarene Judaism independantly
>and we met after the
>fact. I am not
>the founder and neither was
>he. there have always
>been Nazarene Jews.

I don't care who said what and when - you guys are a cult in my book. Must be something in the water there near Wacko, Texas (mis-spelling intentional.)

>I can't make you believe something.

You certainly try. Most cultic figures are very good at that type of thing.

> That has become obvious
>on many issues. None
>the less I have Jewish
>ancestory,

NO YOU DON'T. Not even 1 red drop of blood. You only THINK you have Jewish ancestry because you THINK the British-Israelite crap theory is true.

> have racticed Judaism since
>I was 14,

NO you haven't - and I can PROVE it.

> am married
>to a Jewish girl the
>granddaughter of a holocaust survivor,
>we have five children who
>are the greatgandchildren of a
>holocaust survivor.

I don't care who you're married to. Donna is married to me but that does NOT make her an Assyrian.

>
>I cannot see myself as anything
>BUT a Jew.
>

That's the problem. You WANT to be Jewish so bad that you cannot see anything else. I think you've actually convinced yourself that you're Jewish.

How sad. You should be proud of WHO you are WITHOUT feeling the need to make up a false identity.

You're as Goy as I am and you KNOW it. So don't come in here with your superior attitude as if being a Jew (which you're NOT) makes you better than anyone else.

And DON'T come in here with a fancy-shmancy "Dr." title - when both you and I know for a fact that the highest level of education you attained is a G.E.D. - that you never even got your bachelors degree, let alone a Master's degree or even a Doctorate for crying out loud!

How stupid do you think I am? I'm sorry if I gave you that impression - I can guarantee you that I'm not stupid.

Go and practice your "Six Steps" elsewhere if you can find idiots that'll buy it.

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7. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 05:06 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama to all my brethren,

In case you were wondering who the "Great Whore" mentioned in James' "Six Steps" is - just read this page on his website:

http://www.nazarene.net/FAQ2.htm

That's right folks - we, you and I who don't follow his sick twisted form of so-called Judaism (Real Judaism is nothing like it) - we are whores.

Mazel-Tov, James. Well done.

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8. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 05:59 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 

The page in question identifies "Christendom" as the Whore... it does NOT identify "Christianity" as the Whore.

Trimm

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13. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 09:22 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 
I don't know about anyone else but this makes me feel TONS better - thanks!

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9. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Jan-31-2002 at 05:59 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
>> That has become obvious
>>on many issues. None
>>the less I have Jewish
>>ancestory,
>
>NO YOU DON'T. Not even
>1 red drop of blood.
> You only THINK you
>have Jewish ancestry because you
>THINK the British-Israelite crap theory
>is true.
>

No I refer to Jewish ancestors.

>> have practiced Judaism since
>>I was 14,
>
>NO you haven't - and I
>can PROVE it.
>

I will be privately emailing you the email address of a person who knew me back then and can verify my claims here.

James Trimm

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10. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 00:15 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
>
>No I refer to Jewish ancestors.
>

Are you going to force my hand to post your geneaology here for the last 5 generations - going all the way back to 1861 in Arkansas and Tennessee ?

I would rather not since it's a matter of privacy. It would be against my ethics to do so - at least without your explicit permission.

I would much rather you be honest about it - and prevent me from looking like a jerk - if it's not already too late for that.

>
>>> have practiced Judaism since
>>>I was 14,
>>
>>NO you haven't - and I
>>can PROVE it.
>>
>
>I will be privately emailing you
>the email address of a
>person who knew me back
>then and can verify my
>claims here.
>

You claimed to have attended Ahavat Shalom Congregation in Ft Worth, Texas.

Do you stand by that claim?

Make a public anouncement right here and now that you attended Ahavat Shalom Congregation in Ft Worth, Texas from the age of 14 to 18 - which would be the years ~ 1980-1983. Let the people here be witnesses.

As you can tell - I don't need to discuss with your long-lost buddy to confirm. I've already confirmed my worst suspicions.

And I'm not surprised that instead of offering the name and number of the Rabbi at Avahath Shalom, or any other confirmed member of that congregation - that you give me the name and email address of a long-lost buddy. Another insult to my intelligence.

I don't believe anything you say anymore. Not one single solitary word, Doc.


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11. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 09:04 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #10
 
>>
>>No I refer to Jewish ancestors.
>>
>
>Are you going to force my
>hand to post your geneaology
>here for the last 5
>generations - going all the
>way back to 1861 in
>Arkansas and Tennessee ?
>

You could post names but that would not tell us if they were Jewish. Among my ancestors were the Vinyards and the Nixes who were Jewish imigrants from Germany. The Striklands may also have been Jewish but I am not certain about them.

>
>>
>>>> have practiced Judaism since
>>>>I was 14,
>>>
>>>NO you haven't - and I
>>>can PROVE it.
>>>
>>
>>I will be privately emailing you
>>the email address of a
>>person who knew me back
>>then and can verify my
>>claims here.
>>
>
>You claimed to have attended Ahavat
>Shalom Congregation in Ft Worth,
>Texas.
>
>Do you stand by that claim?
>
>
>Make a public anouncement right here
>and now that you attended
>Ahavat Shalom Congregation in Ft
>Worth, Texas from the age
>of 14 to 18 -
>which would be the years
>~ 1980-1983. Let the
>people here be witnesses.
>
>As you can tell - I
>don't need to discuss with
>your long-lost buddy to confirm.
> I've already confirmed my
>worst suspicions.
>

The person I put you in touch with is no "long lost buddy" I was a teenage kid and he was in his 50's, now in his 70's. He was one of the Christians who was trying to convince me that Yeshua was the Messiah when I was a teen age Jewish boy attending syanagogue. He remembers me as a teenager who was attending synagogue at the time (no he likley cannot name the synagogue now al these years later).

>And I'm not surprised that instead
>of offering the name and
>number of the Rabbi at
>Avahath Shalom, or any other
>confirmed member of that congregation
>- that you give me
>the name and email address
>of a long-lost buddy.
>Another insult to my intelligence.
>

The current Rabbi was not the Rabbi 20 years ago. Like most congregations there is likely almost no one there that was there 20 years ago and certainly no one that remembers a 14 year old boy. Moreover a Jew who turns to belief in Messiah cannot depend on any old syngaogue members to confirm anything. What I have said is that I ATTENDED that congregation as a CHILD NOT that I was a MEMBER (synagogue membership fees are WAY to high for 14 year olds and not required for regular attendance). FYI Synagogue membership roles are not based on attendance but upon membership dues paid annually.

Those people there who knew me well enough to remember me have moved on and we have lost touch over the last 17 years. The person I was closest to was Yael. I use to spend Sabbath's with her.
In 1984 she moved to Israel and after 1988 I lost touch with her. I still have the Hebrew Tanak she gave me before leaving.

Bottom line is that like most people I cannot put you in touch with people I knew at a congregation I attended 17 years ago. A certain woman has tried to make much of the fact that I was never a member, which is to make much of a fact about nothing because I have never CLAIMED that I was a member.

HOWEVER I can put you in touch with the man described above. Moreover my wife may be a good verifier as well. When we married 10 years ago I still knew one person who had attended Avahath Shalom with me what at that time was seven years earlier. We soon lost touch with that person and since her husband's last name was "Davis" I have no way of tracking her down now. But my wife did know her during the first year we were married and did know her as a person I had attended Ahavot SHalom with.

But arent you getting a bit ridiculous?

>
>I don't believe anything you say
>anymore. Not one single
>solitary word, Doc.
>
>
>Fk^rwbw 0ml4
>
> Peshitta.org


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12. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 09:19 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
You could post names but that would not tell us if they were Jewish.

Boy - just like Dean said - you're more slippery than Clinton during a deposition.

I interpret this as you would be offended if I post your lineage - so I will NOT do it.

The "names" which you refer to all were born into Christian families whose burial ceremonies were officiated by Christian pastors. Every single last one of them, going all the way back to 1861, was married in a Christian Church and it was officiated by a Christian Pastor. Every single last one of them is buried today in Christian cemeteries. God rest all of their souls and may He bless all of them.

James - give it up. You're not a born-and-raised Jew who came to faith in the Messiah - which is what you would like people to think.

You're a Goy who came to faith in Messianic Judaism. Not a Jew who came to faith in Messiah. Be honest.

Show me ONE, just ONE peice of paper from a rabbi or synagogue that has an ancestor of yours listed in the records of that supposed Jewish community in Germany.

Just ONE marriage Ketubah (contract), certificate of any kind showing a Bar or Bat Mitzvah, anything except your word, which I no longer trust.

Finally - NO, I'm not getting ridiculous.

You use both your supposed Jewish lineage (which wouldn't mean anything anyway) and your supposed Doctorate (which is phony) to impress people into thinking that you're something which you're NOT.

Then, when you speak authoritatively on the Aramaic New Testament - people say - "Wow. He's a Jew and a Doctor so he must know what he's talking about."

You're NEITHER a Jew nor a Doctor - and you KNOW it.

You have absolutely no right and no qualifications to be telling ME what the Aramaic language says or means anywhere.

I'm done talking about this subject unless you want to continue to claim these false claims without any proof.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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14. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 10:38 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #12
 

MANY people have, like myself, learned that some of their ancestors were ethinc Jews who lived as Christians, often for acceptance in a Christian world. This is NOT unussual at all.

As you yourself have pointed out it does not matter. Judaism is a covenent people and I clearly have lived as a part of the covenent people since I was 14.

The real issue here that your raising is NOT my actual ethnicity (which we could debate forever) but whether or not I have lived AS Jewish since I was 14. And I can establish that since the age of 14 I have lived in the Jewish culture. Studied Torah, Talmud and Midrashim. Worshiping in synagogue with Hebrew and Aramaic liturgy, observing Jewish festivals. Dancing Jewish folkdances, singing Jewish folksongs. I had a Jewish wedding under a chuppah. I have pictures of the wedding. We have a signed Aramaic ketuvah (Marraige contract), wedding pictures and we still have the broken glass. I did not become a believer in Yeshua as Messiah until I was 18 and from 14 to 18 I actually engaged in apologetics attempting to prove that he was NOT Messiah.

Now lets face it, Even if it were to turn out that I was somehow wrong and did not have one Jewish ancestor but only thought that I did, would that affect my familiarity with the Jewish culture and with Judaism? Obviously not!

None the less I do have ethnicly Jewish ancestors and in fact (though this proves nothing by itself) I look very Jewish in my features.

As for my degree, it is a Theological Semionary degree. It is not unussual for Seminaries not to be accredited by the state. MANY choose not to place the government or government approved agencies in athority over their theological training. Seperation of Church and state is prized by many Seminaries. The well known "Dr. Walter Martin" also had a degree from an unaccreditted institution. This is NOT the same thing as a "phoney" degree such as one would purchase from a "diploma mill". My degree was earned. In order to earn my degree I earned 210 credit hours and was required to obtain at least two letters of recomendation from doctrates in my field. I obtained three such letters of recomendation.

Now you need not rebut me on this. I admit and have always admitted that my degree is a Theological degree from a non-accreditted Seminary.

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15. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 11:13 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #14
 

Sorry for the many typos in the last post. I twas typed with one hand with baby in the other arm

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16. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 11:13 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #14
 
James,

Now that we've cleared up your "Jewish Ancestry" exaggeration - let me ask you these following questions:


  • Why would a Jew go to a "St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary" to earn his "doctorate" instead of a Jewish Yeshiva?
  • Are you not familiar with the fact that "St. John Chrysostom" was a rabid anti-Semite? Doesn't sound like a school I'd go to if I was a Jew.
  • How can you have a "Doctorate" when you don't even have your Master's degree?
  • How could you have obtained your Master's degree (which you DON'T have) if you don't have a Bachelor's degree. You can't just go from G.E.D. to being a "Doctor."
  • This school, "St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary" does not exist today. Nor has it, as the State of New Mexico confirmed, EVER existed as far as it's concerned. Period. What gives here?
  • This school, "St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary" not only does not exist today - it was created solely by a "Bishop Don De Cordova" of the supposed "Apostolic Catholic Church in America." This phony bishop was excommunicated by this phony "church."
  • I ask the question again - since you have such a problem with the "Whore of Babylon" as you call it - why would a nice "Jewish boy" such as yourself seek a "doctorate" from a school owned and operated by the "Whore" of Christendom?

Here's my summary of what I've learned.

You think you're a Jew because you THINK you've found some obscure ancestors that you THINK were Jewish in Germany. You cannot prove it conclusively.

You cannot prove you attended any Rabbinical Synagogue from the ages of 14 to 18. You didn't have a Bar Mitzvah, you were NOT circumcized on the eighth day according to the Jewish Covenant. Your parents were not secular Jews, but secular Christians. Ever single family member in your lineage - as far back as we can trace with official records (1861 A.D.) from the Coronor, County records office, etc - was a Christian who was BORN, MARRIED and BURIED with a Christian (Baptist) minister present. No circumsized rabbis here - no way buddy.

You claim to have "attended" a rabbinical Synagogue from the ages of 14 to 18. I have no reason to believe you - but let's for the sake of argument say you in fact did. That age (14 to 18) range does NOT mean that you were "born and raised a Jew." You, in fact, were born into a White-Anglo-Saxon-Protestant Southern heritage. Last I checked the history books, there were NO Jews in the 1800's in Arkansas. I don't remember reading of ANY synagogues built on the side of the Appalachian mountains.

You say you "look Jewish in your features." SO WHAT? Why even mention that at all? IS THAT ALL IT TAKES, JAMES? You look like "the tailor on the Fiddler on the Roof" - and, "poof" - just like that you've convinced yourself you must be Jewish?

Summarization - YOU ARE NOT JEWISH. YOUR WERE NOT BORN JEWISH. YOU WERE NOT RAISED JEWISH. YOU DID NOT HAVE A BAR-MITZVAH. YOU WERE NOT CIRCUMCIZED ON THE EIGHTH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT. YOU CANNOT VERIFY IN ANY MANNER SHAPE OR FORM THAT YOU ATTENDED A RABBINICAL SYNAGOGUE. I DON'T CARE WHAT TYPE OF WEDDING YOU HAD. IN FACT, YOU ADMIT YOUR WERE NEVER A "MEMBER" OF A RABBINICAL SYNAGOGUE. HOW CONVENIENT! YOU NEVER GOT YOUR BACHELORS DEGREE. YOU CERTAINLY NEVER GOT YOUR MASTERS DEGREE. YOU SURE AS HELL DON'T HAVE A DOCTORATE THAT'S WORTH THE PAPER IT'S WRITTEN ON.

That's the summary - in a nutshell. Who exactly are you and what your qualification are - only God knows - you've even fooled yourself.

Aramaic expert my arse! I knew from the day you told me "khudatha" means "renewal" that something was up. Then you come and tell me that "Rukha d'Qudsha" is a feminine term!

Who are you trying to fool, "Mr. Six-Step"? ME? You're trying to fool ME?

PA-LEEZE !! Keep tapping that six-step.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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17. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 12:43 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #16
 
>James,
>
>Now that we've cleared up your
>"Jewish Ancestry" exaggeration - let
>me ask you these following
>questions:
>
>


    >
  • Why would a Jew go
    >to a "St. John Chrysostom
    >Theological Seminary" to earn his
    >"doctorate" instead of a Jewish
    >Yeshiva?

    This is a long story. In my work on Aramaic NT origins I came into contact with an Apostolic Catholic Bishop who had an interest in this same area. He was facinated by some of my material and we became friends. He invited me to complete a course of studies with St. John Chrysostom on a full scholarship, an offer I could not refuse.

    Why not a Jewish Yeshiva? They would not tolerate my belief in Yeshua as the Messiah and at the time there was no Messianic Yeshiva as such.

    >

  • Are you not familiar with
    >the fact that "St. John
    >Chrysostom" was a rabid anti-Semite?

    Yep... ironic isn't it?

    >

  • How can you have a
    >"Doctorate" when you don't even
    >have your Master's degree?

    I also completed my Masters with St. John Chrysostom.

    >

  • How could you have obtained
    >your Master's degree (which you
    >DON'T have) if you don't
    >have a Bachelor's degree.
    >You can't just go from
    >G.E.D. to being a "Doctor."

    No you cannot. BTW a GED is the equivelant of a High School Diploma. I REALLY don't want to retype the whole page again but I will refer to page 9 of the Seminary Bulletin which gives admision requirements. To qualify as a student at the Seminary one normally had to have 60 hours of credit friom an accreditted college or university. OR as item 4 page 9 states:

    "Is a man of mature age who can demonstrate consistant and stable employment over a period of years my be admitted by examination if they have less than sixty college units. The Rector of the Seminary shall be the sole judge of these qualifications."

    I was adfmitted on this basis after passing an examination administered by the Seminary Rector. I STILL had to make up those 60 credit hours as well.

    >
    >

  • This school, "St. John Chrysostom
    >Theological Seminary" does not exist
    >today. Nor has it,
    >as the State of New
    >Mexico confirmed, EVER existed as
    >far as it's concerned.
    >Period. What gives here?

    The school was founded in 1973 originally under the name of "Saint Charles College". It was established under the authority of Archbishop Stephen M. Corradi. Archbishop Corradi appointed Father Jerome Joachim as Rector of the Seminary. In 1974 Father Joachim succeeded Corradai as Archbishop and continued as Rector. In 1983 "Saint Charles College" was renamed "St. John Chrysostom Theological Seminary".

    >
    >

  • This school, "St. John Chrysostom
    >Theological Seminary" not only does
    >not exist today - it
    >was created solely by a
    >"Bishop Don De Cordova" of
    >the supposed "Apostolic Catholic Church
    >in America." This phony
    >bishop was excommunicated by this
    >phony "church."

    1. No it was created in 1973 when he was a child. He himself attended the Seminary in the late 80's and became a bishop and rector in the late 80's or early 1990's

    2. He was not a phoney Bishop as the church has confirmed that while he later left on bad terms (he soon after left Catholicism for Messianic Judaism )he was a Bishop of the Apostolic Catholic Church.

    3. The CACINA (Catholic Apostolic Church in North America" is no phoney Church. They are the North American representative of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Brazil which split from the Roman Catholic Church primarily over dissatisfaction that the Roman Church was helping Nazi war criminals relocate in South AMerica.

    >
    >You cannot prove you attended any
    >Rabbinical Synagogue from the ages
    >of 14 to 18.

    Should I HAVE to? Should I HAVE to PROVE that?
    It is true, plain and simple.

    >Aramaic expert my arse! I
    >knew from the day you
    >told me "khudatha" means "renewal"
    >that something was up.

    hmmm... I would say that JEWS would use KHUDATA the same way we use the Hebrew cognate KHASASHA especially when in context the author is quoting from Jer. 31:31. I also consulted with Avi ben Mordechai on this and he agrees that KHADASHA in Hebrew can mean "renewed" and that in Jer. 31:31 he agrees that it does mean "renewed". So we have an honest disagreement here.

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18. RE: Allow me to Revise !

Feb-01-2002 at 01:44 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #17
 
>>

  • Are you not familiar with
    >>the fact that "St. John
    >>Chrysostom" was a rabid anti-Semite?
    >
    >Yep... ironic isn't it?
    >

    Yep - lot's of irony (among other things) here.

    >>

  • How can you have a
    >>"Doctorate" when you don't even
    >>have your Master's degree?
    >
    >I also completed my Masters with
    >St. John Chrysostom.

    More on this below.

    >>
    >>

  • This school, "St. John Chrysostom
    >>Theological Seminary" does not exist
    >>today. Nor has it,
    >>as the State of New
    >>Mexico confirmed, EVER existed as
    >>far as it's concerned.
    >>Period. What gives here?
    >
    >The school was founded in 1973
    >originally under the name of
    >"Saint Charles College". It
    >was established under the authority
    >of Archbishop Stephen M. Corradi.
    > Archbishop Corradi appointed Father
    >Jerome Joachim as Rector of
    >the Seminary. In 1974
    >Father Joachim succeeded Corradai as
    >Archbishop and continued as Rector.
    > In 1983 "Saint Charles
    >College" was renamed "St. John
    >Chrysostom Theological Seminary".

    Here's the real deal from Kari Cole who works for the New Mexico Commission on Higher Education:

    Thank you for your inquiry regarding the operating status of St. John
    Chrysostom Theological Seminary in New Mexico.

    As I explained earlier on the phone, religious schools offering degrees for
    the purpose of individuals going into the ministry are not required to be
    licensed in New Mexico. However, since your information indicates this
    said school offers more than just degrees in divinity and theology, under
    statute and regulation this school would be required to be licensed.

    Unfortunately, the New Mexico Commission on Higher Education does not have
    any records indicating this school has ever operated in New Mexico. If it
    is operating in New Mexico now, it appears that it is doing so illegally.

    I hope this information is helpful. If you have additional questions, or
    need further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact our office.

    Sincerely,

    Kari Cole
    Education Consultant
    NM Commission on Higher Education

    >Should I HAVE to? Should
    >I HAVE to PROVE that?

    If you makes claims that you attended it, yes you do. Just like you cannot call yourself a "Dr." when it's not worth the paper it's written on. Nobody would consider your supposed "doctorate" as valid - nobody except that renegade bishop who probably printed it on his PC printer.

    The State of New Mexico certainly does not recognize it. And James - that's the point. The point is that no secular authority has given you the authority to call yourself a "doctor" - yet you continue to do so and sell books under that false pretense.

    And you continue to pretend to know this language when in fact you DON'T.

    Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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    19. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 01:57 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #18
     

    >Thank you for your inquiry regarding
    >the operating status of St.
    >John
    >Chrysostom Theological Seminary in New Mexico.
    >
    >
    >As I explained earlier on the
    >phone, religious schools offering degrees
    >for
    >the purpose of individuals going into
    >the ministry are not required
    >to be
    >licensed in New Mexico. However,
    >since your information indicates this
    >
    >said school offers more than just
    >degrees in divinity and theology,
    >under
    >statute and regulation this school would
    >be required to be licensed.

    Sorry, ST. John Chrysostom only offered degrees in Theology and Divinity.

    >>Should I HAVE to? Should
    >>I HAVE to PROVE that?
    >
    >If you makes claims that you
    >attended it, yes you do.

    No... I don't.

    In fact it is silly to expect that I could prove that I attended a certain Synagoguse as a teen over 20 years ago. As if I would still know anyone from there after 20 years (especially having become a MEssianic 17 years ago). It is doubtful that there are many people there now who were there 20 years ago and of any few that are there it is doubtful that they would remember a teen attendee from 20 years ago. I do know that those I was close to are no longer there. I kept in touch with those people until they each eventually moved away and we lost touch.

    As I said, however, my wife of ten years did meet and know for a few months one of these people before they moved away. She can verify that this person did know me from having attended that syanagogue with me when I was 14 through 17.

    If you want to call us both liars then I believe the burden of proof is YOURS. And you have NOT proven YOUR claim that I did NOT attend the Synagogue during that time.

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    20. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 02:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #19
     
    >
    >Sorry, ST. John Chrysostom only offered
    >degrees in Theology and Divinity.
    >
    >

    As I have said all along my degree is an STD (Sacrae Theologae Doctor) a THEOLOGICAL degree.

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    23. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 02:24 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #20
     
    Don't forget that it's not even recognized by the church in which the renegade bishop once handed them out.

    Don't forget to mention that it's a worthless piece of paper in the eyes of the State of Texas (where you live) and in the State of New Mexico (where this school supposedly one day existed, does not exist anymore, and who never had any record of the school's existence.)

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    21. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 02:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #19
     
    James,

    Logic and common sense tells us that the burden of proof is on the person making a claim - NOT on the person who questions it. That's negative logic.

    YOU claimed to have attended that rabbinical synagogue for 4 years. Therefore if someone questions you about it the burden of proof is ON YOU to prove your claim.

    I can show you a baptismal certificate, school transcript and paperwork and even my marriage "ketubah" from the Church of the East. Because I really attended that church and I really was a member.

    If you can't show the same for 4 years of you showing up to that place - then you cannot substantiate it. Anyone can claim anything they want to on the Internet - how come when anyone is asked at that synagogue if they ever heard of you - they say no?

    I can point you to tens of people who knew me from Mar Gewargis parish which I haven't attended in 20 years (I moved and now attend a different parish) - and they will ALL remember me. My rabbi in school - for instance. OR the priest who officiated. Or 3 or 4 deacons. MANY MANY people will remember me.

    I mean - you ARE in the 2000 "Who's who" listing - SOMEONE who is a confirmed member of that synagogue SHOULD remember something so out of the ordinary as a 14-year old Goy who attented a synagogue for 4 whole years!

    Even if it WERE true - that still does not amount to a "Jewish Upbringing" that you constantly harp about. Nothing about a 14-year old boy attending synagogue unilaterally while everyone else at home is enjoying a hamburger topped off with some slices of savory hickory-smoked bacon can be construed as a "Jewish Upbringing." The rest of your family was CHRISTIAN - practicing or NOT.

    You have nothing to prove to me - but I don't believe you AT ALL about this. And since you have admitted that your "doctorate" is not accredited by any institution - governmental, secular or religious - I will no longer bring that issue up.

    Fk^rwbw 0ml4

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    22. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 02:24 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #21
     
    >James,
    >
    >Logic and common sense tells us
    >that the burden of proof
    >is on the person making
    >a claim - NOT on
    >the person who questions it.

    And here I thought I was innocent until proven guilty

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    24. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 02:30 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #22
     
    Last edited by Paul Younan on Feb-01-2002 at 02:58 PM (CT)

    >
    >And here I thought I was
    >innocent until proven guilty
    >

    Your second mistaken thought is that this is a courtroom.

    It's not. Your not on trial. It's a debate - and any claims must hold up under scrutiny. If you claim something you must be able to prove it.

    I can prove (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that you never attended that Synagogue. And I can prove (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that all of your family members going back to 1861 in Arkansas were Christians, and NOT Jews.

    I don't know where you get "Jewish Upbringing" from 5 generations of Christians.


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    25. RE: Allow me to Revise !

    Feb-01-2002 at 03:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

    In reply to message #24
     
    >Your not on
    >trial.

    Really? You sure act like it.

    >
    >I can prove (beyond a shadow
    >of a doubt) that you
    >never attended that Synagogue.

    No, you can only prove that I was not a member. Which is not helpful since I never claimed to have been a "member". Synagogue "members" (unlike Church "memners" pay annual dues which are to high to expect a teen attendee to have been a "member". I was an attendee twenty years ago and you can state denials over and over but you cannot prove that I did not atedend during those years because I DID.

    >And I can prove (beyond
    >a shadow of a doubt)
    >that all of your family
    >members going back to 1861
    >in Arkansas were Christians, and
    >NOT Jews.

    As if there were never any Christian Jews or never any Jews who lived as Christians and kept their Jewishness a secret.

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    Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

    Ethnicity, Religion, Language
    » Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
    » Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
    » Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
    Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

    Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

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