Forum Name: Assyrian Forums - Peshitta
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#0, Compendious
Posted by Iakov on Mar-15-2002 at 07:22 PM

Akhi Paul,

Just received Lamsa & Compendious!

Are the definitions in compendious synonymous with Aramaic or will they vary as with 'Qnoma'?

The reason why I ask is due to a very interesting comment on 'bar nasha...'.

Thanks in advance.
Shlama,
Yaqub


#1, RE: Compendious
Posted by Paul Younan on Mar-15-2002 at 07:31 PM

In response to message #0

Shlama Akhi Iakov,

The Compendious is great. The only complaint I have (other than the script) is that it is heavily slanted toward the Western Aramaic/Syriac dialectic tradition, which in many cases does not reflect the Eastern (more archaic) tradition.

The language in Mesopotamia was more pure than in Syria and the Levant where Greek influence, especially over time, wreaked havoc on the definition of very important terms. (We saw this with Qnoma.)

I'm at work and don't have my copy with me - what's the comment on bar-nasha?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

https://www.peshitta.org";>Peshitta.org


#2, RE: Compendious
Posted by Iakov on Mar-17-2002 at 05:22 AM

In response to message #1

Shlama Akhi Paul,

>I'm at work and don't have
>my copy with me -
>what's the comment on bar-nasha?

See the Compendious under the 'Alah'(n) heading.
'Alah barnash'-"the God man".

Then also under the 'Alah'(v) heading.
'barnasha atalah'"man became God".

I cannot find where these phrases occurr in the CAL daatabase.

Are you aware of any occurences?

Shlama,
Yaqub


#3, RE: Compendious
Posted by Paul Younan on Mar-20-2002 at 08:01 AM

In response to message #2

Shlama Akhi Yaqub,

I can't say I've ever come across them. These constructs may have their origin in the "Western" Aramaic/Syriac tradition and therefore would be absent in my own.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

https://www.peshitta.org";>Peshitta.org


#4, RE: Compendious
Posted by Iakov on Mar-20-2002 at 07:56 PM

In response to message #3

Shlama Akhi Paul,

>These constructs
>may have their origin in
>the "Western" Aramaic/Syriac tradition and
>therefore would be absent in
>my own.

This brings me to my next question.
I found this site: https://members.aol.com/assyrianme/aramaic/aramaic.html

Which had the following statement.
There are two major dialects, Western (also refered to as palastinian dialectŒ (the dialect of EESHO (Jesus)) and Eastern (also referred to as "Syriac dialect" ("Syriac" is a dialect of Aramaic, NOT a language. Syriac also has Akkadian influences)). To say modern aramaic or modern syriac, you must be consistent and say modern hebrew, modern english, modern greek, etc. for all languages follow the law of evolution.

See why I am confused?

Also do you know where I can find a serto vowel chart?

Thanks for your help in advance.

Shlama,
Yaqub


#5, RE: Compendious
Posted by Paul Younan on Mar-20-2002 at 08:45 PM

In response to message #4

» Last edited by Paul Younan on Mar-20-2002 at 08:47 PM (GMT3)

Shlama Akhi Iakov,

>Which had the following statement.
>There are two major dialects, Western
>(also refered to as palastinian
>dialectŒ (the dialect of EESHO
>(Jesus)) and Eastern (also referred
>to as "Syriac dialect" ("Syriac"
>is a dialect of Aramaic,
>NOT a language. Syriac also
>has Akkadian influences)). To say
>modern aramaic or modern syriac,
>you must be consistent and
>say modern hebrew, modern english,
>modern greek, etc. for all
>languages follow the law of
>evolution.
>
>See why I am confused?

Yes - this is a very common misconception.

"Eastern Aramaic" and "Western Aramaic" refer to 2 distinct dialects which formed after the Aramaic-speaking churches split up in the 5th century AD onwards. They did not interact with each other and so two different major dialects formed, one used by the Western Churches (SOC, Maronite, Melchite, etc.) and one used by the CoE in the Eastern regions (Persia, Mesopotamia, etc.)

Before the 5th century Christological wars, there was no such distinction as "Eastern" and "Western" Aramaic.

Therefore, some people think that since "Western" Aramaic became the speech of the Levant, Syria, etc. after the 5th century - that Meshikha must have spoken this dialect.

The fact is that the Galilean speech at the time of Christ (400 years before the Christological wars) was heavily influenced by the Assyrian/Babylonian speech of the inhabitants of Samaria and Galilee (2 Kings 17:24).

The Galileans and the Samarians were/are Assyrians and Babylonians.

This is why their speech was different than the 'Hebrew' dialect of Aramaic that was used in Judea.

Meshikha and the Apostles were recognized by their 'Assyrian' speech.

This is why the Peshitta does not need to translate things like 'Talitha Qumi' but why it does need to translate things like 'Khaqel-Dama.'

>
>Also do you know where I
>can find a serto vowel
>chart?
>

In our Eastern tradition, a system for marking vowels in Aramaic with dots above and below letters had developed. This system was later adopted and adapted by the Masoretes to mark their Hebrew texts and by the Arabs to mark their Arabic texts.

On the other hand, the Western branch of Aramaic/Syriac developed a different system based on diacritics modeled after miniature versions of Greek vowels.

I said all that to say this: I don't know a thing about the Serto script or the vowel system employed by that script.

Here's an excellent paper which is very helpful:

https://omega.enstb.org/yannis/pdf/syriac96.pdf

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

https://www.peshitta.org";>Peshitta.org


#6, RE: Compendious
Posted by Iakov on Mar-20-2002 at 10:05 PM

In response to message #5

Akhi Paul,

This paper appears to be extremely involved. Looks like I might understand what it says in a few years.

It looks like it will help me though.

As I paroused the paper I noticed a few headings.
Arabic written with Estrangelo and Serto letters.
An acquaintance, Steven Ring, had some documents written in Arabic letters.

My Arabic friends had great difficulty reading it.
Is it possible or probable the documents were actually in an Aramaic dialect?


Thanks
Yaqub


#7, RE: Compendious
Posted by Paul Younan on Mar-20-2002 at 10:16 PM

In response to message #6

Shlama Khabri Yaqub,

In that paper, on page 11, you will find the Serto vowel system on the table near the top of the page. As far as I understand, there are only 5 inverted Greek letters they use in that script to represent the vowel markings.

About the Arabic documents - if they are written in Arabic script it is possible that the language is actually Aramaic, but just written in Arabic script. This does occasionally happen - just like Aramaic written with Hebrew script.

Not knowing how to read the Arabic script, I wouldn't really know. But I do have uncles and cousins who grew up in Lebanon and could read it for me and let me know if it's Aramaic. Can you scan one and post it here?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

https://www.peshitta.org";>Peshitta.org


#8, RE: Compendious
Posted by Paul Younan on Mar-20-2002 at 10:20 PM

In response to message #6

Shlama Akhi,

For the Serto vowels, I found a better website - please check out lessons 53 and 54 (in "Level 2") from this website my friend Alan Aldawood developed:

https://www.assyrianlanguage.com/

This is, by far, the best website for Aramaic grammar in existence. Even includes sound clips.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

https://www.peshitta.org";>Peshitta.org