Ancient Nazarenes and "Nestorians"

Sh'lama,

The following is a very interesting portion of an ancient document which connects the ancient Nazarenes to the ancient "Nestorians" (i.e. "Church of the East).

The document bears some explaining. The document is the TOLDOT YESHU.

The TOLDOT YESHU was a hostile parody on the Gospel composed by Rabbinic Jews attacking the Netzarim (Nazarene Jews). The material in the TOLDOT YESHU is very colorful, and historicly totally inaccurate.

The TOLDOT YESHU begins by retelling the story of Yeshua's birth. It opens with Miriam being raped by a Roman soldier and a MAMZER (bastard) being born to her named "Yeshu". The story goes on to recount how Yeshu learned the correct pronounciation of the tetragrammaton and using this secret information passed off sorcery as miricals, claiming to be the Messiah. The story goes on to tell about his execution for sorcery and how his followers, the Nazarened faked his resurection. The story then goes on to parody Paul as an antinomian etc.

All of it is quite blasphemous.

Then the story surprisingly turns to Nestorious ?!?!?!?!? in chapter 7. This is VERY INTERESTING that ancient Rabbinic Jews would see any connection between the ancient Nazarene sect of Judaism and the Nestorians.

The following is chapter 7 of the TOLDOT YESHU:

1. Now after a long time the kingdom of Persia arose.
2. And a certain one went forth from them and made a mock of them, even as the heretics had made a mock of the wise men.
3. And he said to them, Paul erred in his writing when he said to you, Be not circumcised: for Yeshua was circumcised.
4. Moreover Yeshua said, I am not come to diminish a single word of the law of Moses, not even one sign; but to fulfill all his words.
5. And this is your reproach which Paul laid upon you when he said, Be not circumcised.
6. And Nestorius said unto them, Circumcise yourselves, for Yeshu was circumcised.
7. Furthermore Nestorius said, Ye are idolaters that say, Yeshua is God, seeing that he was born of a woman. Only the Holy Spirit ministered through him as with the prophets.
8. And Nestorius began to debate with the Nazarenes: he persuaded their wives.
9. He said unto them, I will enact that no Nazarene shall have two wives.
10. And as Nestorius became detestable in their sight there arose a strife between them, in so much that a Nazarene would not pray to the abomination of Nestorius, neither a Nestorian to the abomination of the Nazarenes.
11. Thereafter Nestorius went to Babylonia, to a certain place the name of which is Chazaza, and all fled before him.
12. And the women concealed themselves, for Nestorius was a violent man.
13. The women said to him, What wilt thou of us?
14. He said unto them, I will only that ye receive of me the bread and wine offering.
15. Now it was a custom of the women of Chazaza to carry in their hands large keys.
16. He gave one of them the offering; and she cast it on the ground.
17. Then the women threw the keys, which were in their hands, and smote him so that he died.
18. And the strife continued between them for a long time.

In reply to message #0
 
Akhi Yaqub:
The story is an old Boobamiser(Fairy tale) of the 9th century and not worth the paper it is printed on. The jews made that up, they had no connection withNestorius whatso ever. and Nestorius never denied the Diety of Messiah, his only problem was the glorification of Mayram Eshoa's Mother as being worshiped calling her Theo-Tokos bear of God,while he instisted that she bore the Messiah not , God in the sense of Worship being given to her. He forbid the term Theo-tokos for Christo-tokos bearer of the Christ or Messiah. Do not slander his memory by such a false and stupid fabricated lie as in this evil book you mentioned. Shalom, Shmuel Eliezer Bar Yaqub Khoheina Mei Qohelleth Yisrael

In reply to message #1
 

Well there may actually be some connections between the Netzarim (Nazarenes) and the Church of the East. The Church of the East tradition has it that Nazarene Jews (Taddai and Mari) brought the Aramaic Peshitta NT scriptures and an Aramaic liturgy to them in Assyria in the first century.

There are also traditions that the ancient Nazarene Jews, in the fourth century, fled the Roman Empire into the Parthean Empire where they eventually assimilated into the CoE.

The Nazarenes say Ya'akov HaTzadik (James the Just) as the heir to David's throne after Yeshua's death and therfore he was the first Nasi (president) of the Nazarene Sanhedrin. The line of Nazarene Nasi'im continud to follow through the same family line until 135 when the Sanhedrin left Jerusalem. We have no record of what happened after that, but the CoE has a tribe that are believed by them to be Jews and whose patriarch always follows through a single family line which claim to be the descendants of Yosef (Joseph) the husband of Miriam (Mary) (this would therefore be the same family line as that of Ya'akov HaTzadik just mentioned.

Paul may be able to tell us more... but it seems that there may well have been a connection between the ancient Nazarenes and the ancient "Church of the East"... they may have been on somewhat "good terms" in ancient times.

Trimm

In reply to message #2
 
Akhi Yaqub:
There is no connection at all. First of all all the liturgy of the Church of the East is translated from Greek to Syrian Aramaic. Addai is merly a legendary figure, since there is no evidence to find him. As far as the Jewish communiites that left the Roman Emoire due to persecution to the Parthian Empire they formed the Babylonian Acedamies of Babylon as the Talmud calls the whole area of Iraq. In 550C.E. a Rabbai collected and edited the Gemora in to its final form known as Talmud Bavali. None of these Jews ever believed in Messiah, to them Yeshua was just another fraudlent pretender. the Christian interpatations of the Tankh are all considered distorted and wrong by the Rabbais even to this day. For example the Rabbbais hold the LXX is fradulent being tampered with by the Christians like Origen 245C.E. by falsely using Parthenos instead of Ha Alamah, meaning Young woman not virgin. The Peshitta Tankh has bethula a distored phrase meaning virgin and copies this from the Christian source that made the LXX changed from virtue some believe to Virgin. I of course disagree withthem , but the point is the Church of the East has no real connection withthe Jews or there people. Even the Aramaic of the Rabbais is raddically diferent than the Peshitta , in both Alphabet and grammar, pronounciation and ect. Yes it is the same language , but a very different dialect, maybe closer to what Yeshua spoke and taught in. Shalom, Shmuel Eliezer

In reply to message #3
 
>Addai is merly a legendary figure

Addai is Aramaic for Taddai (Greek: Thaddaeus)
one of the 12 emissaries of Yeshua (Mt. 10:3 etc.)

Trimm

In reply to message #3
 
>None of these Jews ever believed in Messiah,
> to them Yeshua was just another
>fraudlent pretender.

ARe you not aware of the ancient sect of Nazarene Judaism?

In reply to message #3
 
Akhi Shmuel:

No one appreciates your zealousness more than I, but you are in error on a few points, and there is something I wish to point out to Dr. Trimm as well.

1) The Nazarenes ARE MENTIONED in the NT. Rav Shaul is "a ringleader of the Nazarenes", also on known as "The Way-- which YOU call a sect." Acts 24:12-14. Paul too, who says in Acts 23:5-6, "I am a Pharisee and the son of a Pharisee" considered the Nazarene Way as a logical extension of his Pharisaism. He IS a Pharisee not WAS a Pharisee.

2) The Nazarenes are also known as the See of Jerusalem. Paul was "a ringleader" but not THE RINGLEADER, because he locked horns with the real powers that be and lost on a few occasions. he makes a lot of boasts, for example in Galatians 2 about how "he opposed Peter to his face" at Antioch" even as he admitted earlier that he needed the See of Jerusalem's approval to preach-- which is why he consulted with Peter for 15 days! Notice also that Paul records "opposing Peter" but never winning the argument. Yes Peter does have that dream that he interprets to allow Gentiles in, but what Peter actually did is not really rebuked by anyone else. Notice how in Acts 15 the Jerusalem Church rebukes actively those who "went out without our authorization"? Where is Peter's rebuke? It's nowhere! And this isn't just my opinion. Allen Callahan, who heads NT studies at Harvard, said the same thing, basically "Paul vented about the encounter but he lost the debate." These are the Nazarenes.

3) The See of Jerusalem was also headed by Ya'accov Ha Tzadik and his Epistle makes it very clear that his group follows the Hebrew liturgical model of Torah-Nevi'im-Ketuvi'im and then quotes from the Gospels at the end. Ya'acov's influence is such that it extended to all Hebrew Messianic groups-- both in and out of Israel. He is also a Nazarene.

4) The documentation Dr. Trimm referred to is very real and before Paul responds with a TON OF EVIDENCE let me say categorically that the liturgy of the ACOE has not, is not, nor ever will be derived from anything other than Aramaic. The documents that show that the 6th and 8th patriarchs of the ACOE were in fact Nazarenes descended from Joseph and Mary is compelling. Addi, Mari, and King Abgar are real historical figures and the proof of what happened in in the known history and archaeology of Edessa itself.

5) This one is for Dr. Trimm: Nestorius was NOT a member of the ACOE. He was of Greek descent, lived in Syria and he did take the ACOE's side in a vital debate. But, the ACOE did not start with Nestorius any more than the Syrian Orthodox did with Jacob Bardeus (hence the term "Jacobites"). Nestorius is also recorded as a martyr but he did not meet a violent death. To be sure however you are right that there is a connection between the ACOE and the Nazarenes since the ACOE was called the KNOOSHTA D'NETZARIM for the first 400 years of its existence, but it is not linked with Nestorius. What the TY people did was they knew Nestorius was contriversial and the man had vicious lies told about him. They then used those distortions to slam the Nazarenes by maligning their brethren in the ACOE.

Hope this helps!

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

In reply to message #6
 
Akhi Andrew:
Your comments are thoughtful and do help some what. However I did not mean that these peole did not exist historically, just the stories told here about them are false , made up by Sacred Church tradition. This same tradition known as Catholicism in the West bows to statues and kisses Ikons, prays to and throughthe Saints Peter, Mary, and ect. They made up a Holy use of the Greek and or Latin language in all liturgy, called Mass in the West. The Jewish people also have a manmade liturgy called Tefiloth in the Siddur(order of the Tefilot(Prayers). Boththe synagogue and the Church created a Hirarchy outside of the New Testament. The Patriarch of the Church of the East for example may I am not sure have to remain celebrate, due to the uhnholy Pagan Virginity cults of the Helenistic and Persian Worlds. Aside from the Western Early heresies of Gnosticsm and Qabalah, in the East we have Mithraism and other cults developed from a split in the Zoroastrian Religion of the Parsi. In the latter period of the Sarsaind Empire all non Parsi reliegions were persecuted including all the Jew and Christians as well. Parsi was the state religion and all non-Parsis were considered disloyal citzens worthy of death. Islam conquered that Empire and in the process saved many peoples from certain death at the hands of the Persian rulers. In Zorastrainism the prayer of the Shema ,Deuteronomy 6:4-9 was forbiden mentioning only one God , why the Parsi believed in two Gods, that is Ahura Mazda, and the Devil Ahrimann. Both these Gods are locked up in a dualistic fight for supremacy, and mankind stands inthe balance. As far as the liturgy of the Church of the East Cried has it on their webcite in English and they claim it was translated from the Greek liturgy into Aramaic, why is this since Cried is a member of the Church of the East and uses Aramaic for alll offical documents. Shalom, Shmuel Eliezer

In reply to message #7
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-2001 AT 10:43 AM (CST)

Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

As far as celibacy goes, the practice has been that Patriarchs are usually chosen from celibate bishops - although there is no canon law forbidding married bishops or patriarchs.

In fact, there have historically been many married bishops, metropolitans and even patriarchs (the last one being Mar Eshai Shimun in 1975.)

It is preferred, however, that they be celibate only because of the persecution they have had to endure, and that they should not be influenced by their family to denounce their faith and not be martyred...

About the liturgy, the 2 Greek liturgies that were translated into Aramaic by Mar Aba the Great (7th century AD) are:

(1) The Hallowing of Mar Theodore
(2) The Hallowing of Mar Nestorius

But these are not the main liturgy (the litugy of Mar Addai & Mar Mari is). The main liturgy is composed in Aramaic originally (see the CIRED site.)

Prior to the 7th Century AD (when Mar Aba the Great was Patriarch), there was only the original Hallowing of Mar Addai and Mar Mari.

But, because of the persecution of Mar Theodore and Mar Nestorius by the Byzantine Greek Church, the Patriarch Mar Aba the Great decided to go to the land of the Romans, find their liturgies, and preserve them in our Church.

Now, the only versions that exist of these 2 liturgies are the ones we preserved in the translated Aramaic.

The Byzantines had succeeded in wiping them out in the West.

But since we revere these two great men, we decided to preserve them and use them on a few occasions during the year.

Also, read my post to Akhi Yaqub about this topic.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

In reply to message #7
 

Well since the topic has come up let me give my own tenative views:

The original followers of Yeshua were a Torah-Observant sect of Judaism known as the Netzarim (Nazarenes)(Acts 24:5). Their movement was centerted at Jerusalem.

A spin-off Gentile movement which were called "Christians" began in Acts11:19-26.
This movement began at Antioch.

This first congregation of Gentile Christians formed in Antioch, the capital of Syria, where some of the people spoke Greek and almost all spoke Aramaic, which is also called "Syriac". Then in 70 C.E., there was a mass exodus of the Nazarenes from their center at Jerusalem to Pella. Eventually, they established communities in Beroea, Decapolis, and Bashanitis aa well as Berea. These Nazarenes used Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures and in the fourth century Jerome traveled to Borea to copy their Hebrew Matthew. As a result, while at least the book of Matthew was first written in Hebrew, very early on Aramaic and Greek New Testament books were needed.

In addition to these factors we must also consider the Eastern spread of Christianity. We have heard much about the so called "Westward spread of Christianity" but little is written of the equally profound Eastward movement. While Paul made missionary journeys from his headquarters in Antioch Syria, into the Western world, most of the emissaries (apostles) traveled eastward.

Bartholomew traveled eastward through Assyria into Armenia, then back down through Assyria, Babylon, Parthia and down into India where he was flayed alive with knives.

Thaddeus (Taddai/Addai) taught in Edessa (a city of northern Syria) Assyria and Persia, dying a martyr by arrows either in Persia or at Ararat.

Thomas taught in Parthia, Persia and India. He was martyred with a spear at Mt. St. Thomas near Madras in India. To this very day a group of Christians in India are called "St. Thomas Christians.

Finally Kefa (Peter) traveled to Babylon and even wrote one of his letters from there .

That the emissaries brought Semitic New Testament Scriptures eastward with them is affirmed to us by the Church fathers. Eusebius writes:

Pantaenus... penetrated as far as India, where it is reported

hat he found the Gospel according to Matthew, which had been

delivered before his arrival to some who had the knowledge of

Messiah, to whom Bartholomew

one of the emissaries, as it is said, had preached, and left them

the writing of Matthew in Hebrew letters.

And as Jerome writes:

Pantaenus found that Bartholomew, one of the twelve

emissaries, had there preached the advent of our

Lord Yeshua the Messiah according to the Gospel of Matthew,

which was written in Hebrew letters...

This entire region of the Near East stretching from Israel through Syria, Assyria, Babylon, Parthia and down into India, became known as the "Church of the East." At its high point the Church of the East stretched as far east as China!

As time went on there was a polarization away from Judaism. The Anti-nomian position prevailed in Christendom. Jewish (and Biblical) festivals were dropped in favor of the old Babylonian customs and festivals. The old Pagan Babylonian festivals became renamed "Christmas" and "Easter" etc., Sunday, the day of the sun god surplanted the Sabbath as the day of the weekly convocation.
The Church of the East was not immune to this great apostasy of gentile Christendom.

Then in 325 the Nicean Council was held. Jews were banned from the meeting which was presided over by Constantine (who at that time was still s Pagan). Jewish practices were o

In reply to message #10
 
Akhi Yaqob:
Shalom Aleichem, Mazal Tov!
A Job well done. I do not blame the churches for their straying from the doctrines and commands of Yeshua Ha Mashiach, after all Emperor Constantine and his sucessors are to blame for that. about 50 years after Constantine made Christianty a legal religion, the Roman Christianm Government decide to also make Christianity a state religion. this is were the troubles began. When all non =-Christians the formerly persecuted ones became in charge, they became the persecutors themselves. all non Christians were to be eradicated and that included the Jews as well. No Jewish Nazarene Believer had any rights to their Judaic culture or heritage, any one caught practicing this was branded a heretic and wiped out. This was soon to be true in the East soon after as well. Hence Nazarene Judaiosm died out. The unregerinate Pagana became Christians and brung their idolatress baggage withthem. soon people prayed to the Marytars as Saints , adored the Most Blessed Virigin Mary , as the New titile for their Earth Mother Goddess Diana of the Ephesians. They read new Christian meanings in to the winter solstace calling it Christ-Mass really the Roman-Greek Pagan Yuletide and Easter the spring fertillity festival of the Tetunic people of Gual , borrowed from Babylon the time of Nimrod. And many other strange and unuseal practices entered the Church. Even the Early Church Fathers like Papias and Justian Martyar were anti-Semetic Greeks espousing Hellenism in place of the Judaic roots. Justian Marytar criticized the Sabbath in favor of Sunday worship the first day of the Week to commerate the ressurection of Jesus christ in 150A.D. Withthe slaughter of Jewish believers by Bar Khoba circa 132-135A.D. the Nazarenes were no a small helpless minority with a Gentile majority very different from them selves , they were mostly forced assimilated or died out. It was a sad point of our history as well. These same Rabbais responsiable for the Bar Khoba insident gave rise to the Pharasical Talkmud and Rabbinic tradition against all believers in Messiah both Jews and Gentiles. these Rabbais were responsiable for the Marytatdom of many early Christians as well, instigating the Pagan Romans to crush these believers of Messiah. Shalom, shmuel Eliezer Ben Yaqob Ha Cohen Mei Qohellet Yisrael

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Yaqub,

">Well there may actually be some
>connections between the Netzarim (Nazarenes)
>and the Church of the
>East. The Church of
>the East tradition has it
>that Nazarene Jews (Taddai and
>Mari) brought the Aramaic Peshitta
>NT scriptures and an Aramaic
>liturgy to them in Assyria
>in the first century."

Yes indeed.

In fact, the Church of the East has 3 different liturgies:

1. The Hallowing of Mar Addai and Mar Mari. This is the main liturgy used 99% of the time, was composed originally in Aramaic by the Apostles Addai and Mari (of the Seventy)

   Here is the complete liturgy:
   https://www.cired.org/liturgy/apostles.html

2. The Hallowing of Mar Theodore the Interpreter (Mar Theodore of Mopsuestia, who was Nestorius' teacher and a Greek.) This one was translated from the Greek. Here is the introduction from the liturgy:

   
   "By the strength of our worshipful God we write
   
   THE HALLOWING OF MAR THEODORE THE INTERPRETER
   of the divine Scriptures, bishop of Mopsuestia,
   which Mar Aba the Catholicos brought out and translated from Greek to Syriac when he went up to the land of the Romans and brought it out with him, with the assistance of Mar Toma of Urhai, Doctor.
   
   And they consecrate by it from the first Sunday of Annunciation Until the Sunday of Hosannas"

   Here is the complete liturgy:
   https://www.cired.org/liturgy/theodore.html
   
   

3. The Hallowing of Mar Nestorius, also used rarely, which was also translated from the Greek.

   Here is the introduction:

   
   By the strength of our Lord Jesus Christ we begin to write

   THE HALLOWING OF MAR NESTORIUS, patriarch of Byzantium, which is the city of Constantinople,
   the unbloody martyr, persecuted for the truth
   of the orthodox confession.

   Mar Aba the Great, catholicos, of blessed memorial, when he entered the land of the Romans, translated the hallowing of Mar Nestorius and all his compositions from the Greek into the Syriac, as Mar Yoanis the catholicos makes known in the treatise which he composed for the fathers, may his prayer be upon us.

   And they consecrate by it five times a year:

   On Epiphany, on the Friday of Mar John the Baptist, on the Memorial of the Greek Doctors, on Wednesday of the Rogation of the Ninevites, on Passover.
   

   Here is the complete liturgy:
   https://www.cired.org/liturgy/nestorius.html

So you see, the CoE has translated things from Greek, but always made note of it.

But the one used during the majority of the liturgical cycle is #1.

">There are also traditions that the
>ancient Nazarene Jews, in the
>fourth century, fled the Roman
>Empire into the Parthean Empire
>where they eventually assimilated into
>the CoE."

That is true as well. In fact, the main catechism used in the Church today, refers to the name 'Nazarene' as "another" name that the members are to use to refer to themselves.

Also, the Patriarch of the CoE has been known by the Arab (Islamic) conquerers as "The Patriarch of the Nazarenes", whereas the other Patriarchs residing in Moslem areas where called by their respective church names.

">We have no record of
>what happened after that, but
>the CoE has a tribe
>that are believed by them
>to be Jews and whose
>patriarch always follows through a
>single family line which claim
>to be the descendants of
>Yosef (Joseph) the