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Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

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ShmuelElizer
 
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Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 10:45 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Akhi Shlama L'Kulkhan:
I visited a church this Sunday. it was an Arabic /English speaking Orthodox Chruch. the serivice was lo9ng and boring. the liturgy was hard to follow as writen. Every English word was chanted in the Byzantine form. They make reference to Mariam the mother of Eashoa as being the Theotokos and the phrase "all Virgin". what does that mean, other than the beif in the perpetual virginity of Mariam? If that is the case than the New Testament is in error. Why is that you might ask? Welll for one thing the new Testament says that Eashoa had earthly brothers and sisters. Also culturaly a marriage to a man implioes the personal intercourse sexually between the two to consecrate the marriage. Yes Miriam remained a virgin untill Eashoa was born. also they have said that Mar Nestorius was a heretic teaching against the Deity of Messiah. Is this correct, the Church of the East liturgy suggests otherwise? They use ikons in worship, an idotaltress practice of the helenistic culture they adopted under Constantine. What is the position of the Church of the East? Also no one understood Syrian Aramaic only Arabic. They claim that the Syrian Bible the Peshitta New Testament comes from the Greek language. In their personal translation of Hebrews 11:24-29 they read:
Brethern through faith Moses refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, when he was grown up. He prefered to share the hardships of the people of God rather than enjoy the temporary pleasures of sin. he considered Christian martydom more precious than all the treasures of Egypt. for he was looking foward to the ultimate reward in heaven. See how unliteral and colored through Byzantine influence this translation is. Brethern appears in no version or the original language. Also Christian martyardom is no where to be found. They have changed the scriptures to suit their own chuch interpatation. What does the Church of the East think about that? Shlama W'Berkhate,Shmuel Eliezer

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1. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 11:55 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

I can't really speak on behalf of the Church you visited, the COE and other Semitic churches in the middle east are very different, and always have been.

We don't have images of any kind in our churches, we don't pray to Mary or anyone else, and I'm not so sure they do, either. They may be asking Mary and other deceased believers to pray for them....but they are not praying directly to Mary or any other saints. This is how it has been explained to me.

Their explanation of the origin of the scriptures is not surprising to me. They are more Byzantine than the Byzantines. That's why they had no problem changing their scriptures to suit the purpose of the empire.

We in Persia, had no such problem. We never had a Constantine interjecting himself in the business of the Church.

That they no longer speak Aramaic is not surprising, either. They have adopted the Arab culture and language to survive in the middle east, whereas we have protected our own culture and language and suffered massacres because of it.


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2. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 12:06 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Akhi Paul:
Then does your church believe in asking the intercessionary prayers of the Saints in heaven, like Mariam, Yosep, Shawl,Keepa, and ect? Is Mariam believed to have remained a virgin(bethula)all her life, and if so, why then would Yosep marry her? Why do some orthodox Chruches pray in front of ikons , while the Roman Catholics bow and knell in frount of statues like the Pagans of Rome? Shlama Shmuel Eliezer

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3. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 12:21 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
>We in Persia, had no such problem.
>We never had a Constantine interjecting
>himself in the business of the Church.

Well that is not totally true. While Constantine did not rule Persia, he did preside over the Nicean Council in 325 where the representative for the Church of the East, a Bishop named Yochanan, signed the Nicean decrees on behalf of the Church of the East as "Metropolitan of Persia and of Great India". The Church of the East maintained communon with Rome throuout Constanine's entire life and in fact was in communion with Rome for over 100 years not ending thatr communion until 431 and the Council at Ephesus.

So there seems to have been a voluntary submision to Rome.

Trimm

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4. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 12:37 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Akhi Yaqob:
Shalom,Akhi:
What then is the true beliefs of the one and only true Kohillath Mashiakh Amim Ha Goyim V'Ha Yehudim? Orthodoxy is boring and appears dead. The priest called Augastine a Gnostic heretic, a manichian. He said the sceince of Systamatic Theology is worhtless and that Thomas Aquinas wrote utter nonesense. What should one do in this case? and where can one celebrate the original Semetic jewsih traditions minus the rabbinic leagalism and hold fast to the belief in Yeshua Ha Mashiakh Adoneinu? Shalom,Todah Rabba, Shmuel Eliezer Ben Yaqob Ha Khoein Mei Qohellt Yisrael

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6. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 01:12 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 

Well obviously I would say Nazarene Judaism and Paul would likely say the Church of the East.

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8. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 02:35 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama Akhi Yaqub,

I would say that we are all imperfect humans, and our institutions and practices reflect it.

I surely did not start this website to promote conversion or proselytizing to my own faith or tradition, which is why you very rarely see me speak anything on the topic of theology.....in fact, the topic makes me quite uncomfortable.

That's not my purpose.

On this forum, there are people of various practices, but all united in their love and interest in the language of Maran.

The only reason I mention my own Church on this website is to give people a historical background to the Peshitta scriptures and their preservation, but my Church is not the only one that has preserved it, nor did it originate with us.

I would say that there are varying traditions within the Semitic framework of worship. I share many things in common with my Jewish brethren, other things with my Catholic and Protestant brethren, etc.


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Dean Dana
 
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9. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 08:49 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-2001 AT 10:48 PM (CST)

Shlama Shmuel,

Being a Rabbinically "Orthodox" Jew all my life then coming to faith in Yeshua Mshikha, I'd say Adata d'Medinkha (the Church of the East)!

Dean Dana

>Akhi Yaqob:
>Shalom,Akhi:
>What then is the true beliefs
>of the one and only
>true Kohillath Mashiakh Amim Ha
>Goyim V'Ha Yehudim? Orthodoxy is
>boring and appears dead. The
>priest called Augastine a Gnostic
>heretic, a manichian. He said
>the sceince of Systamatic Theology
>is worhtless and that Thomas
>Aquinas wrote utter nonesense. What
>should one do in this
> case? and where
>can one celebrate the original
>Semetic jewsih traditions minus the
>rabbinic leagalism and hold fast
>to the belief in Yeshua
>Ha Mashiakh Adoneinu? Shalom,Todah Rabba,
>Shmuel Eliezer Ben Yaqob Ha
>Khoein Mei Qohellt Yisrael


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5. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 12:37 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Yaqub,

Please read Samuel Hugh Moffett, 'A History of Christianity in Asia, Volume I.'

The COE is a Nicene Church, at which it participated, but it was never ruled by anyone in the Byzantine Empire, nor ever had submission to either Antioch or Rome.

This is a common lie spread by the enemies of the Church of the East, and is cleared up quite well by the book mentioned above.

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7. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 02:17 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Akhi Paul:
Sorry to imply that the Church is pagan, but there are many simmilarites between the Hellenistic Heathen Practices and the observance of Western East Orthodoxy and Catholisicm. The belief of having communion with the desceased in the Lord is strangley absent int he Synagougue which i have never heard a prayer for so and so to pray for us or any individual. The names of the saints like Avraham, Yitzhaq, and Yacob are honored , but never petioned to in any form. In Shite islam some people visit the grave sites of Holy Imam's and pray for theeir intercession, most Musliums feel this is pagan and superstition. Like for example in Qarbala,Iraq many a Shite muslium made or still makes a mini haj to the grave of Ali the fourth marytared Khalifa in the Shite tradition. Shlama, Shmuel Eliezer
P.s. Let me know if you speak Farsi, since I have two copies of the Modern Farsi Bible that I not reading Arabic font nor speaking Farsi have any use for, thank you.

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10. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 08:49 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-2001 AT 10:56 PM (CST)

LAST EDITED ON Mar-05-2001 AT 10:55PM (CST)

Shmuel,

In orthodox, rabbinic synagogues, kaddish is said for 11 months, 3 times a day by the immediate family members of the deceased to help ensure his/her entrance into Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden, i.e "Heaven"). Then Kaddish is said annually by family members forever on behalf of departed loved ones.

Additionally, dinners, luncheons and other memorial-type events are held for the departed including family members, great sages and other important religious figures. All this is done for, among other reasons, the express purpose of praying for thier souls.

Praying for the dead is alive and well among religious Jews ... and has been for centuries.

Dean Dana

>Akhi Paul:
>Sorry to imply that the Church
>is pagan, but there are
>many simmilarites between the Hellenistic
>Heathen Practices and the observance
>of Western East Orthodoxy and
>Catholisicm. The belief of having
>communion with the desceased in
>the Lord is strangley absent
>int he Synagougue which i
>have never heard a prayer
>for so and so to
>pray for us or any
>individual. The names of the
>saints like Avraham, Yitzhaq, and
>Yacob are honored , but
>never petioned to in any
>form. In Shite islam some
>people visit the grave sites
>of Holy Imam's and pray
>for theeir intercession, most Musliums
>feel this is pagan and
>superstition. Like for example in
>Qarbala,Iraq many a Shite muslium
>made or still makes a
>mini haj to the grave
>of Ali the fourth marytared
>Khalifa in the Shite tradition.
>Shlama, Shmuel Eliezer
>P.s. Let me know if you
>speak Farsi, since I have
>two copies of the Modern
>Farsi Bible that I not
>reading Arabic font nor speaking
>Farsi have any use for,
>thank you.


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11. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-05-2001 at 11:23 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #10
 
Akhi Dean:
You are confusing purgatory which is Catholic and of Gnostic ideology with intercessary prayer of the deseaced saints. The origin of this myth you mentioned is given in the following source. OT. The word geenna does not appear in the LXX or in greek literture. It is the Greek form of the Aramaic gehinnam, which in turn goes back to the hebrew ge hinnom. This term originally denoted a valley lying south of jerusalem, "the valley of the son or sons of hinnom" (JOs.15:8) Child sacrifices were offered in this valley(2 Kings16:3;21:6), for which reason Josiah descrated it(2Kings23:10); and it will be the place of God's judgement(Jer.7:32;19:6-7) Jewish apocalyptic assumed that this valley would become the hell of fire(1Enoch27:1-2;54:1-6;90:26-27). Hence geenna came to be applied the eschatological hell in general, even whenit no longer localized at jerusalem. In time geenna became simply the place of punishment and so attracted the correspondingideas about Hades. Geenna thus became a temporay place of punishment(until the final judgement). This is the origin of Qaddish and the Catholic Purgatory. A myth. Source is page 239(The NIV Theological dictionary of New Testament Words abridged in one volume by Verlyn D. Verbrugge,Shmuel Eliezer

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12. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 10:27 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

I see what you mean now. As far as I'm aware, we at the COE only pray for the souls of our departed (which is deeply rooted in Semitic practice), I'm not aware of any liturgical practice of seeking the prayer of deceased saints.

We have no concept of Purgatory.

I will look into it further.


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13. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 10:53 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #12
 
Akhi Paul:
Then what is the purpose of praying for the souls of the dearly departed , since their fate is already determined based upon their trust in Maran Eashoa or not? Our praying for their souls is the same thing as the Chinese Ancestor worship. also can praying to Mariyam for her intercession on ourt behalf with her son Mar Eashoa is idolatry and quiet unnessary. Shlama ,Shmuel Eliezer

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14. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 11:54 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #13
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

Were the fates of the souls in Sheol, whom Maran Eshoa preached to, already determined, since they were physically dead? 1 Peter 3:19-20, Ephesians 4:8-10 How could salvation be preached to them unless they were in a state that was capable of receiving salvation?

Akhi, I'm not saying that we pray for their salvation, we know they are saved already, we simply just pray for them, like I would pray for you.....for your happiness, well-being, etc. There are many uses for prayer, not only praying for salvation.

You are confusing this with the Latin doctrine of Purgatory. This has nothing to do with Purgatory, we in the COE do not believe in Purgatory.

The communion of all believers is a central doctrine of the Faith of our forefathers....even death cannot separate us or prevent us from praying for each other, we are all alive in HIM.


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17. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 02:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #14
 
Akhi Paul:
The fates of the dead of the righteous before Messiah's resurrection was in a place called Abraham's Bosom, the righteous waiting for the Lord in a state of joy and bliss and the wicjked waiting for the final judgement in torment and suffering. In the Jewish religion we honor the dead by having our three daily services in honor of the three Patriarch's Abraham, Yitzhaq, Yaqob. The Mouring is for Abraham the Noon service is for Yitzhaq and the Evening is for Yaqob. We do not pray to them nor ask intercession from them that is to God alone or His divine Son Maran Eashoa. yes we pray for intercession withthose we know living among us , but neverby those who passsed on. In Daniel 6:23 I believe we see Daniel in the lion's den prayed towards Yerushalayim three times daily, this the three daily prayer services in the Jewish liturgy. The Qadish prayer magnifies and praises God alone, there is no refernece to the dead at all in it. Shalom,Shmuel Eliezer
P.S. We in the synagougue keep all our prayers in Hebrew and Aramaic to keep commounion with all the Saints of the Bible and the entire Jewish community the same every where in the world they pray today. The Rabbais say the language of the Bible is Lishona Qadisha, that is Holy Tongue set apart for the Worship and praise of God almighty now and forever. and this Sacred tongue unites all Jews everywhere.

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15. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 12:14 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #13
 
Dear Akhi Shmuel:

I understand where you are coming from, but Akhi Paul also has a point with prayers for the dead being a deeply rooted Semitic practice.

Think of the Kaddish (which is in Aramaic BTW). That's as Jewish as it gets. Granted the prayer was originally composed in the Middle Ages, but there are other Yarhzeit traditions that go back much earlier.

For many years I have always endeavored to to attend Orthodox shul on Yom Kippur as a mitzvah of respect even though I know full well where the real atonement comes from. I have conventional Jewish brethren who go there and who need Messianic witnessing as well as newly made converted Messianics who still are attached to the shul. The Rabbi there, a very learned man that I respect even though I don't agree with him, has made the point that the Kaddish is as much for the solace of the pray-ER as it helps the pray-EE.

The traditional explanation has always been that there are levels to heaven and that the soul ascends to another level when Kaddish is spoken. I know what you will say before you say it. Medieval foklore right? Just the stuff we are trying to get away from, right?

But I say...look at the Aramaic of it. The first line (yishgadal v'yishkadash...) means "May the name of the LORD be glorified and sanctified"-- which is another way of saying something from a separate Aramaic prayer given by another Rabbi: "Our Father, Who is in heaven, hallowed be your name..." Do you see it?

There is then a difference between praying FOR the dead and praying TO the dead. For the living know they will die but the dead know nothing...Why seek the dead on behalf of the living? We pray Kaddish to cleanse our souls and revere our Creator, and to entreat Him to be merciful to our departed ones. Is the fate decided? Yes. But do we know what that is? No.

And so, I still believe that in the Days of Awe the books of life are opened, their fates are decided but God is still open to hearing the case. Why? Because we are told that the prayers of the righteous prevaileth much. There is only one way to salvation to be sure, but we worship a God of CHESED as much as one of GEVURAH. Further, even if this is not the case, the prayer is a mitzvah TO US FOR RECOGNIZING WHO HAS THE ULTIMATE CONTROL OVER THE LIVING AND THE DEAD.

That's not ancestor worship Akhi Shmuel. It is Jewish practice that may have its problems with ultimate harmonization with Messianic practice, but still Jewish nevertheless.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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16. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 02:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #15
 
Akhi Andrew:
You must also before forced to believe in the Gnostic teaching of purgatory then. Why do i say that you might ask? Well in the Rabbinc tradition the souls of all the deacesed go to Gehenna ,for at least 11 months while the living relatives pay money to the Rabbai to say Qadish for them and in Hasidic practices even Mishnaiot for the laws of the deacesed. this gets them a better reward of paradise when they reach gan eden the Gardern of Eden. In the Qaballah we see a book called Sepher Ha Gigalim )Transmigration of the Soul) by a disciple of Ari-Zal of the 16th.century. This book believes in reincarnation as a punishment for souls that are not yet pure enough to reach the purifying fires of Gehena. These souls go on living for long periods as thousands of years until they reach the place of Gehenna.From this and the Pseudepigraphal writing of 1Enoch in the deutercanonical books of the Ethiopian Orthodox Monophysite Church preserved in Geze an ancient Southern Semetic language of Ethiopia related to Arabicwe find these Gnostic teachings origin which is refered to as Gehenna being Purgatory by Roman Catholics. Such beliefs and writings are totally worthless. The Bible says clearly it is apointed once for a man to die and then the judgemnt not the rebirth hence reincarnation.This belief is of Gnostic and Hindu origin and is contrary tothe scripture. Shalom Shmuel Eliezer

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18. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 04:45 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #16
 
No Akhi Shmuel...

There is not a Gnostic bone in my body.

I am simply commenting on the Jewish-Semitic background regarding a prayer like the Kaddish. I completely and utterly reject the RCC doctrine of purgatory and the idea of reincarnation. Remember that this is not the only issue that I disagree with the Orthodox on-- you know the rest.
)

But you had better believe that on that sad day when either of my parents pass away that I WILL SAY KADDISH FOR THEM. I WILL DO YISKAR FOR THEM ON THE NEXT YOM KIPPUR.

As for Gehenna, it is eternal punishment, separation from God and second death. It is everlasting burning where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, and there is a great chasm whereby none can escape.

What I am unsure of-- and there are a few things in that category-- is an honest searching for when the fires are turned on. Is it continuous from this age to the end, or do all sleep in Sheol awaiting judgment? I say that because Y'shua says "ON THAT DAY MANY WILL SAY TO ME...AND I WILL SAY DEPART FROM ME YOU WHO ARE AGAINST TORAH. I NEVER KNEW YOU."

Sorry if my position got mingled with my statements about Jewish history.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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19. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 10:26 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #18
 
Akhi Andrew:
There is a diference between honoring the memorial or memory of your parents by saying Yizqor and reciting Qaddish ,then prayering for them. they can not repent in the grave only on this earth , after the person dies they are judged by one thing only, if they recieved the blood of the Marya Maran Eashoa or not. There is no other way to enter into God's kingdom of Paradise or as the Rabban would say Gan Eden. Do you think it is right for the Priest to ask for money that is gelt to speed up the realse of your departed parents to get into Heaven and out of Purgatory? I do not. I think they mis interpated 2 Maccabess 12:42-45 in establish the doctrine of Gehenna 11 months in the Jewish Rabbinic thought and time unlimited in Catholic Theology. The Book of the Ethiopian Enoch is blasphamous in saying that one can and should pray for the souls of the dead. shalom Shmuel Eliezer

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20. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 10:45 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #19
 
>Akhi Andrew:
>There is a diference between honoring
>the memorial or memory of
>your parents by saying Yizqor
>and reciting Qaddish ,then prayering
>for them.

SHLAMA AKHI SHMUEL! AGREED!

they can not
>repent in the grave only
>on this earth , after
>the person dies they are
>judged by one thing only,
>if they recieved the blood
>of the Marya Maran Eashoa
>or not. There is no
>other way to enter into
>God's kingdom of Paradise or
>as the Rabban would say
>Gan Eden.

AGREED! MARAN ESHOO IS THE ULTIMATE JUDGE-- NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY HIM.

Do you think
>it is right for the
>Priest to ask for money
>that is gelt to speed
>up the realse of your
>departed parents to get into
>Heaven and out of Purgatory?


OF COURSE NOT! I THINK YOU KNOW BY NOW THAT I AM NEITHER GNOSTIC NOR PART OF THE RCC. I ABHOR THESE PRACTICES PERSONALLY. PURGATORY DOES NOT EXIST, AND HEAVEN CANNOT BOUGHT.
>I do not. I think
>they mis interpated 2 Maccabess
>12:42-45 in establish the doctrine
>of Gehenna 11 months in
>the Jewish Rabbinic thought and
>time unlimited in Catholic Theology.

AGREED! I HAVE SAID THIS MANY TIMES ON THE NAZARENE FORUM AND AT THE ABS IN A DIALOGUE I HAD WITH A ROMAN CATHOLIC. IT JUST NEVER CAME UP HERE BEFORE.

MY PURPOSE WAS TO COMMENT ON JEWISH TRADITION OF THE ACT ITSELF, NOT MAKE A VALUE JUDGMENT ON THE PRACTICE.

> The Book of the
>Ethiopian Enoch is blasphamous in
>saying that one can and
>should pray for the souls
>of the dead.

OF COURSE IT IS! ONLY THE TENAKH AND B'RIT CHADASSAH IN THEIR ORIGINAL LANGUAGES ARE GOD BREATHED. ANYTHING ELSE IS NOT SACRED AND SHOULD BE THROWN OUT. WE AGREE 100%.

shalom Shmuel
>Eliezer


SHLAMA W'BURKATE
ANDREW GABRIEL ROTH

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21. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-06-2001 at 02:46 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #20
 
Akhi Andrew:
I agree with you on that 100%. Do you know that the Church of the East and the Orthodox disagree with your statement that only the Bible is 100% accurate. The orthodox Priest said Church Tradition is equal to the Scriptures. I strongly disagree. Also why is it if the COE is Semetic that they adopted the Helenistic Byzantine Holydays of Sunday,Christmas, Easter, and Saint Feast Days and ignored the Seven Holy Days of Yahweh, which alone are worthy of sacred observance? I think the Church hated Jes and tried very hard to get rid of allthe first century Christian practices of the Jewish Biblical origin and replace them with the man made Helenistic Church traditions instead. COE is no exception. I do not feel that as a whole the church is anti-Jewish roots, but rather the history of it was. I know that traditions are hard to change and uncomfortable as well and they do not save us, so I am not trying to sit in judgement and condem those of the majority that follow the Byzantine practices instead of the first century original Biblical models. Shalom,Shlama, Shmuel Eliezer

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23. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-07-2001 at 09:42 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #21
 
Dear Akhi Shmuel:

Your zealousness is appreciated, and of course you know that I ONLY venerate Tenakh and B'rit Chadassah. Akhi Paul has also pointed out that there are certain issues even in his tradition that show the flawed hand of men at work. I resepct his tradition as a key piece of primary historical evidence but I don't place it to the level of scripture. Nor do I think the COE does. If I am remembering what Akhi Paul told me correctly, the COE loves its history and the writings from it, but only Peshitta Tenakh and NT is considered officially sacred. He obviously though is more expert than I am on this.

You and I are Jews. That is a fact that cannot be changed, and our forms of Messianism strike me as having roughly a 95% concordance. We will live and die as Jews and retain that viewpoint even as we separate from the apostasy and leaven of the Pharisees and conventional Orthodoxy who has put fences around Torah that were never meant to be there.

Obviously we share much in common with our fellow Semitic Christian brethren but we are not the same thing. Still, they are preferable by far to the alternative. Both of our peoples-- theirs and ours--- have revered the Word of God exclusively in a Semitic framework and both of us have faced the twin demons of Sheol and Abaddon as represented by some militant Muslims (I said SOME-- ok?) on one hand and SOME plotting Greeks and Romans on the other. As a result, we have seen our holocausts and near successful genocides in a way Gentiles will never understand.

This is history, and it is neither comforting nor pretty-- but we can rise above it also. There are so few of us Semites who revere Moshiack and who recognize the originality of an Aramaic NT. If we divide over other differences, then both of our enemies will win, and I for one cannot allow that.

As Paul once told me, he knows that I don't expect him to see Torah observance as we do, nor does he expect me to participate in his church's "Rogation of the Ninevites", because his people descend from the ones Jonah converted. We exchange our views and respect our differences because we also have a common enemy who has nearly infinite resources and adherents.

And besides, I would rather witness to friends and not strangers in an accepting environment. I think I have shown successfully my view to Paul and others here in a way that preserves my distinctiveness and obligations to speak on these matters without a feeling of condemnation. Idon't judge it all anyway-- God does-- and at least He knows I made our case.

Just remember though-- John 3:16 will save you in any language it is read and believed in and all of us must make disciples of ALL NATIONS, and therefore all peoples and persuasions. It is better to love the heaven into someone than to scare the hell out of them.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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24. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-07-2001 at 10:17 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #23
 
Akhi Andrew:
Do you not thik the Church misses out on God's full blessing adopting Constantine and the helenistic /Latin Church fathers anti-Jewish teachings liturgy and holydays, instead of following the first century pattern of Biblical holydays and customs? In the liurgy I sa a reference to the jews as being mischievious and evil trouble makers last week, in an Syrian-Arabic Orthodox Church. Even the Vatican uliminated all such statements from their mass or liturgy in 1962, the orthodox refuse to change anything or admit their guilt of hostile Anti-Jewish feelings expressed in their liturgy of St.Basil and the one I saw of St.John Christostom, whom was vemtely Anti-Jewish and said in his sermons that the Synagougues are houses of prostitution. Why then should I have anything to do with the Byzantines or the Romans that being the case? the COE has no such liturgy that I no of on the other hand and they have suffered more than any other Gentilke Church ion the history of the world. Shalom, Shmuel Eliezer

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25. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-07-2001 at 12:07 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #24
 
>Akhi Andrew:
>Do you not thik the Church
>misses out on God's full
>blessing adopting Constantine and the
>helenistic /Latin Church fathers anti-Jewish
>teachings liturgy and holydays, instead
>of following the first century
>pattern of Biblical holydays and
>customs?

HI AKHI SHMUEL! THERE ARE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES BETWEEN NETZARIM AND RCC/CONSTANTINIAN PARADIGMS, AND I HAVE TREMENDOUS PROBLEMS WITH THE ENTIRE WESTERN SYSTEM. I MIGHT ADD THAT AKHI PAUL DOES ALSO-- REMEMBER THESE WERE THE COE'S ENEMIES THAT SOUGHT THEIR DESCTRUCTION.

THE EXTENT OF TORAH PRACITICE AND OBSERVANCE IS OF COURSE A LARGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN US AND THE COE AND I DON'T SUGARCOAT THAT. WE BELIEVE THAT IF WE LOVE THE MESSIAH WE KEEP THE TORAH-- HIS COMMANDMENTS.

HOWEVER, I CONSIGN ALL BLESSINGS, CURSINGS, AND JUDGMENT TO GOD. THERE IS CHESED AND THERE IS GEVURAH.

In the liurgy I
>sa a reference to the
>jews as being mischievious and
>evil trouble makers last week,
>in an Syrian-Arabic Orthodox Church.


OF COURSE THEY DO. NO BIG REVELATION THERE THAT ARABS AND JEWS ARE IN CONFLICT. SONS OF ISHMAEL AND ISAAC HAVE A LONG AND BITTER HISTORY.

THE CHURCH YOU DESCRIBE WOULD DO WELL TO REMEMBER WHO THEIR SAVIOR WAS-- AND IS. NEEDLESS TO SAY OF COURSE THAT THEY ARE WRONG.

>Even the Vatican uliminated all
>such statements from their mass
>or liturgy in 1962

ACTUALLY IT WAS 1967-- VATICAN II-- AND DO YOU KNOW WHO WROTE THE NEW TOLERANT VIEW? A POLISH DUDE NAMED KAROL WOLTIYA-- NOW KNOWN AS JOHN PAUL II.

, the
>orthodox refuse to change anything
>or admit their guilt of
>hostile Anti-Jewish feelings expressed in
>their liturgy of St.Basil


THAT'S THEIR PROBLEM, NOT OURS. HA SATAN IN ACTIVE BECAUSE HE KNOWS HIS TIME IS SHORT. I AM READY TO FACE THE BIRTH PANGS MENTIONED IN MATTHEW 24. WHEN MY TIME COMES, NAPHSHI (MY SOUL) IS PREPARED.

and
>the one I saw of
>St.John Christostom, whom was vemtely
>Anti-Jewish and said in his
>sermons that the Synagougues are
>houses of prostitution.

SAME ANSWER. BALAAM WAS A SEMITE TOO.

Why then
>should I have anything to
>do with the Byzantines or
>the Romans that being the
>case?

WE WITNESS TO ALL NATIONS AKHI SHMUEL AND WE CAN LOVE OUR NEIGHBORS-- FIGURATIVE SAMARITANS IN OUR MIDST-- WITHOUT COMPROMISING OUR BELIEFS. I WILL PROCLAIM MY NETZARIM FAITH TO CATHOLIC AND MUSLIM, PROTESTANT AND GREEK. IT DOES NOT MATTER. THAT IS WHAT MINISTRY IS AND IT IS NOT FOR THE TIMID TO GO INTO THE LION'S DEN. THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE "TO DO" WITH THEM. WE CANNOT PULL THE TZIT-TZIT OVER OUR EYES SINCE TORAH TELLS US 50+ TIMES NEVER TO OPPRESS A STRANGER. DO THE KOL V'KHOMER THERE MY FRIEND. IF WE ARE OBLIGATED TO FEED THEIR BODIES WITH FOOD AND DRINK, HOW MUCH MORE THAN MUST WE FEED THEIR SOULS WHICH ARE FAR MORE PRECIOUS?

WE CAN HAVE LOVING EXCHANGES AND LOVING CORRECTIONS WITHOUT HAVING LIGHT HAVE FELLOWSHIP WITH DARKNESS. BUT ONLY SOMEONE WELL GROUNDED IN THE WORD CAN DO IT.

the COE has no
>such liturgy that I no
>of on the other hand
>and they have suffered more
>than any other Gentilke Church
>ion the history of the
>world. Shalom, Shmuel Eliezer


I CAN TELL YOU THEY DON'T AND PAUL WILL CONFIRM IT. THEY WERE US SHMUEL 2000 YEARS AGO. THEIR PATRIARCHS HAVE BEEN FROM THE NETZARIM IN SOME CASES AND THE APOSTLES THAT FOUNDED THEM WERE NETZARIM LEADERS. OF COURSE, THAT DOES NOT MEAN 2000 YEARS DOES NOT INTRODUCE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN GROUPS IN THE INTERIM AND NOT ALL OF THOSE ARE CORRECT.

SHLAMA W'BURKATE
ANDREW GABRIEL ROTH


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22. RE: Visit to the Syrian Antiochian Orthodox Church:

Mar-07-2001 at 02:46 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #16
 
Akhi Shmuel,

Please remember that the Mourners Qaddish and Qaddish in general is a prayer of praise to Allaha following in many ways the Tzlota Maranita (the Lords Prayer). Qaddish itself never mentions death or the departed. The Qaddish is said several times a day (in Aramaic) during regular daily prayers. During Shakharit (Morning), Mincha (Afternoon) and Aravit (Evening) prayers the Qaddish is said at least three times per session and not once is it a prayer for the dead. During Shabbat the Qaddish is said at least 5 times. The Qaddish exist in at least three formats to my knowledge, the Qaddish d'rabbanan, Khatzi Qaddish and the Full Qaddish.

In respect to the mourners format, grieving family members are encouraged to say Qaddish not so much for the departed (as Akhi Andrew so accurately pointed out) but for therapeutic reasons to assist the family members during the grieving process. They contend (and I generally agree) that if a grieving mourner says the Qaddish (and understands the beautiful words contained therein) during their grieving (be it for 30 days, 40 or an entire year), it would be very difficult to begrudge God for the loss. It is was designed and implemented to help strengthen ones relationship with his/her creator during difficult times. The Qaddish has nothing to do with the concept of 11 months in gehenna or purgatory. Lets not "throw the baby out with the bath-water"

Shlama Amakh,

Dean Dana

>Akhi Andrew:
>You must also before forced to
>believe in the Gnostic teaching
>of purgatory then. Why do
>i say that you might
>ask? Well in the
>Rabbinc tradition the souls of
>all the deacesed go to
>Gehenna ,for at least 11
>months while the living relatives
>pay money to the Rabbai
>to say Qadish for them
>and in Hasidic practices even
>Mishnaiot for the laws of
>the deacesed. this gets them
>a better reward of paradise
>when they reach gan eden
>the Gardern of Eden. In
>the Qaballah we see a
>book called Sepher Ha Gigalim
>Transmigration of the Soul) by
>a disciple of Ari-Zal of
>the 16th.century. This book believes
>in reincarnation as a punishment
>for souls that are not
>yet pure enough to reach
>the purifying fires of Gehena.
>These souls go on living
>for long periods as thousands
>of years until they reach
>the place of Gehenna.From this
>and the Pseudepigraphal writing of
>1Enoch in the deutercanonical books
>of the Ethiopian Orthodox Monophysite
>Church preserved in Geze an
>ancient Southern Semetic language of
>Ethiopia related to Arabicwe find
>these Gnostic teachings origin which
>is refered to as Gehenna
>being Purgatory by Roman Catholics.
>Such beliefs and writings are
>totally worthless. The Bible says
>clearly it is apointed once
>for a man to die
>and then the judgemnt not
>the rebirth hence reincarnation.This belief
>is of Gnostic and Hindu
>origin and is contrary tothe
>scripture. Shalom Shmuel Eliezer


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Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
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Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

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