James_Trimm
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Mar-13-2001 at 11:45 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
Ambiguous Aramaic words which the Greek translator translated wrong: (This is a common type of translation error. A translator often works word by word without deeply analyzing the meaning of each word in its context. As a result he will often find himself choosing the most common meanings of words rather than there actual contextual meaning in the passage.) Mt. 19:12 Acts 8:27f 0nmyhmmisunderstood by the Greek as "eunuch" but better understood as "faithful one" or "believer" Mt. 19:24 - Mk. 10:25 = Lk. 18:25 the Aramaic word 0lmg is misunderstood by the Greek as "camel" but is better understood as "rope" Mt. 26:6 = Mk. 14:3 the Aramaic 0rbg is misunderstood as "leper" when here it is better understoodas "jar maker" or "jar merchant". Mt. 26:41 = Mk. 14:38 Lk. 16:8 wdy9t0 is understood by the Greek as "watch" but here it is better understood as "awake" Mk. 9:15 whwt is understood by the Greek as "amazed" but is better understood as "excited" Lk. 8:27 0tnydm is understood in the Greek as "city" but in context here should be "province" Lk. 10:4 0l 0xrw0b $n0d 0ml$bw is understood by the Greek as: "and greet no man on the way" but is better understood as: "and JOIN no man on the way" Lk. 16:8 Mwkx is understood by Greek as "wise" but here it means "crafty" Jn. 8:56 xwsm is misunderstood by Greek as "rejoiced" but is better understood as "longed" Acts 11:28 09r0 is misunderstood by the Greek to mean "world" when here it actually means "land" and is used as it is so often as a Euphemism for the "land of Israel". Eph. 3:1 0xy#m 9w#yd 0n0 0rys0 has been misunderstood by the Greek as "a prisoner OF Yeshua the Messiah" (!?!?!?!?!) but is better understood as "a prisoner BECAUSE OF Yeshua the Messiah" Trimm
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- RE: More Evidence of Translation,
James_Trimm, Mar-13-2001 at 02:01 PM, (1)
- camels and ropes and needles and gates,
judge, Mar-13-2001 at 11:22 PM, (4)
- camels,
judge, Apr-03-2001 at 08:16 AM, (10)
- RE: camels,
James_Trimm, Apr-03-2001 at 11:18 AM, (11)
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James_Trimm
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Mar-13-2001 at 02:01 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #0
>Ambiguous Aramaic words which the Greek >translator translated wrong: > >(This is a common type of >translation error. A translator >often works word by word >without deeply analyzing the meaning >of each word in its >context. As a result >he will often find himself >choosing the most common meanings >of words rather than there >actual contextual meaning in the >passage.) > >Mt. 19:12 Acts 8:27f misunderstood by the Greek >as "eunuch" but better understood >as "faithful one" or "believer" > >This one is an exception. "Believer" is the more common meaning.
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Mar-13-2001 at 02:07 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
Shlama Akhi Yaqub, For further verification of this, check out word number 1221 in the Lexicon. Both meanings are present. How can anyone say that the Greeks did not translate this from the Aramaic? The words for "believer" and "eunuch" in Greek are totally different from each other. I love it! :c Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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John Marucci
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Mar-13-2001 at 09:15 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
James, >Ambiguous Aramaic words which the Greek >translator translated wrong: > >(This is a common type of >translation error. A translator >often works word by word >without deeply analyzing the meaning >of each word in its >context. As a result >he will often find himself >choosing the most common meanings >of words rather than there >actual contextual meaning in the >passage.) > >Mt. 19:12 Acts 8:27f misunderstood by the Greek >as "eunuch" but better understood >as "faithful one" or "believer" > > >This one is an exception. "Believer" is the more common meaning. I HOPE this last statement is an admission of error for including Mt. 19: 12 in this list. Since, not only would substituting "believer" for "eunuch" make for a bizarre reading, but, as you well know, this is a central proof text for the validity of virginity-celibacy in the Orthodox-Catholic tradition. To "innocently" change the reading on the basis of a word frequency list is just the kind of devious proselytizing against the ignorant that Dean was talking about. John Marucci
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Mar-14-2001 at 12:33 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #3
Shlama Akhi John, This one is very valid. In fact, the majority reading for 0nmyhm (#1221) is 'Believer'. It obviously makes more sense to render it "Eunuch" in Mattay 19:12, but at the same time "Believer" is acceptable - I think, in Acts 8:27, since castrated men were not allowed in the temple, and this 'Mhaymna' from Ethiopia was going up to Jerusalem to worship. Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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James_Trimm
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Mar-14-2001 at 01:25 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #6
Works better in Mt. 19 also. People do not become castrated for the Kingdom's sake, but they do become BELIEVERS for the sake of the Kingdom. Trimm
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Mar-14-2001 at 07:10 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #7
Shlama Akhi Yaqub, Mattay 19 is talking about marriage/divorce, so a reading of 'Eunuch' or 'Celibate' is not impossible here. You don't have to be castrated to be thought of as a Eunuch. Besides, we know the two words are spelled the same. Linguistically, both meanings are possible. I think it could go either way here, but I would lean towards the traditional reading because of the subject matter leading up to Maran Eshoa's statement. Regardless, this proves that the verse in Acts was a mistranslation in the Greek, since a Eunuch could not worship at the Temple. It could have only been written in Aramaic, the mistake is one-way. Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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James_Trimm
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Mar-14-2001 at 07:21 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #8
Ahhh... but this is ALSO the word that would be used to describe a person who is FAITHFUL to their spouse, just as a BELIEVER is FAITHFUL to YHWH. So the context of marraiage and divorce fits PERFECTLY with FAITHFULONE/BELIEVER. Trimm
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judge
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Mar-13-2001 at 11:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #0
Interesting that you say that rope has been mistranslated as camel.I say this because whilst looking in a site associated with George Lamsa today I noticed that there is a reference that ancient walled cities had gates called "khetas",which means needles.So is there some kind of DOUBLE "double entendre" happening here?............could this be a similair literary device as the one suggested recently regarding motes,beams,eyes and springs ?............also while on the subject of George Lamsa,if his translation is biased...in what way is it biased?....and if he was theologising at points in what way was he theologising.....also love to see his translation of acts 13.17-20 if anyone has the same....peace Michael
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sam
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Mar-13-2001 at 00:59 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #4
Akhi Judge: Dr. Lamsa is anti-supernatural and imated the KJV style to keep his supporters happy. Here is Victor Alexanders reading of the Peshitta Acts 13:17-20: "The people ofGod here, chose our ancestors, and raised them and increased them in the land of Egypt, and He led them out by his great arm. And he saited them in the dessert 40 years. And he subjugated seven nations in the land of Canaan, and gave their land as an inheritance. " And for 450 years he gave them judges until Samuel the prophet. Sorry but it reads the Same as herb Jahn's Peshitto ,only less literally. Lamsa agrees to , only he uses the style and idiom of the KJV more often except where he misinterpates with theological bais he is more literal then Victor's. Shalom, Peace. Samuel Lewis Tykocinski
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judge
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Apr-03-2001 at 08:16 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #0
if the word for camel can be better understood as rope then it seems to show aramaic primacy.....but in the lexical concordance here the word is shown as camel.What is the basis for saying that the word should be translated rope?...thanks in advance...michael(judge)
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James_Trimm
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Apr-03-2001 at 11:18 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #10
GAMLA; CAMEL OR ROPE? By James Scott Trimm In his books, George M. Lamsa lists the Aramaic word GMLA as a word "with many meanings" and states that it can mean "Large rope; Camel; Beam" (The New Testament according to the Eastern Text; George M. Lamsa; 1940 ; p. xxiv). Elsewhere Lamsa writes; The Aramaic word GAMLA is the same word for "camel" and "a large rope". Matt. 19:24 should read, "It is easier for a rope to go through a needle's eye, etc." (The Four Gospels from Aramaic; George M. Lamsa; 1933; p. xi) Now I do not agree with everything Lamsa said. However in this case I think it can be substantiated. Can GAMLA mean "rope" or "beam" as well as camel? The following is a detailed study which I believe justifies Lamsa's claim: THE SEMITIC ROOT GML To begin with, we must make a study of the Semitic root GML to understand its meaning. This root may have two meanings: 1) To ripen and 2) "to bestow on". For this reason the Hebrew word GAMEL is used to refer to a "camel", because a camel is a beast of burden and has a burden "bestown" on it. This semitc root GML also appears in Arabic as the Arsbic word JAMEL meaning "to bear a burden" The Semitic root GML also appears in the Hebrew word GLMH (a gangplank) which is derived from the Aramaic GAMLA (camel, rope or beam) as Klien's states: GMLH Post Biblical Hebrew; gangway, gangboard. Palestinian Aramaic GMLA; of uncertain origin.] - A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English; By Rabbi Ernest David Klein Ph.D.; 1987; p.103Now how could Hebrew GMLH (gangplank) be derived from Aramaic GMLA if the Aramaic word GAMLA con only mean "camel"? Certainly the Hebrew word GMLH must be derived from the Aramaic word GAMLA meaning "camel, rope or beam." THE GREEK WORD KAMHLOS At this point we should examine the Greek word KAMHLOS which appears for "camel" in the Greek text of Mt. 19:24 (and parallels). This Greek word is not a Greek word as such. The Greek word KAMHELOS is actually a Semitic loan word. A poor attempt at transliterating GAMEL/GAMLA into Greek. Several authorities make reference to this fact. I will list only one: "Gk. kamelos (whence L. camelus), is a loan word from Heb.-Phon. GML" - A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language for Readers of English; By Rabbi Ernest David Klein Ph.D.; 1987; p.103Now according to the MANUAL GREEK LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT 3rd Ed. by G. Abbott-Smith; 1939; p. 229; there is an alternate spelling for Greek KAMHLOS which is KAMILOS. A GREEK-ENGLISH LEXICON OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AND OTHER EARLY CHRISTIAN LITERATURE; by Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich; 1957; p. 402; states that KAMILOS can mean "rope." So lets put thus altogether. The Greek word KAMHLOS can also be spelled KAMILOS, can refer either to a camel or a rope and is actually a loanword from Semitic GAMEL/GAMLA. Finally two other sources verify Lamsa's claim about GAMLA: TEACH YOURSELF ARAMAIC By Dr. Mar Aprem; Mar Narsai Press Trichur, Kerala, India; 1981; p. 95 THE NEW COVENANT PESHITTA ARAMAIC TEXT WITH A HEBREW TRANSLATION The Bible Society; Jerusalem; 1986 p.356
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judge
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Apr-03-2001 at 06:51 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #11
Thanks again James for sharing your work.......I noitce in Matt 23.24,when it seems to make more sense that Jesus is actually referring to a camel,that the word in the lexion is slightly different?....could this be signifigant?.....i.e could one form usually mean camel and vice versa?.............thanks in advance..michael(judge)
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