'As best they could...'

� Last edited by Paul Younan on Jun-11-2001 at 03:55 PM (CT)

Shlama l'kulhon mhaymneh b'Mshikha,

As Eusebius tells us, when the time came to translate Aramaic Matthew into Greek, it was quite a struggle. From his comment, one would assume that many 'variations' occured since people (plural) translated it differently in different locations and times.

The examples of this historic struggle are numerous, as Akhi Dean Dana has already demonstrated a few.

Here is another example, which happens to have a parallel in Luke.

The verse in question is Mattai 8:10, where the Messiah's words are recorded as follows in the Aramaic of the Peshitta (as I have translated it):

Jwkl 0n0 rm0 Nym0 (Truly (Amen) say I to you...)
Ly0rsy0b f P0d (...that not even in Israel)
Fwnmyh 0dh Ky0 txk40 (...have I found faith like this)

The parallel passage in Luke is 7:9.

The key to this example, and something that plagues any translator who is working on an Aramaic document, is the phrase f P0d which can't be translated exactly into any other language.

Literally, it means "that also not", but figuratively and idiomatically it means "not even." This association between the literal and the figurative (idiomatic) occurs only in Aramaic.

The parallel passage occurs in Luke at 7:9, where he also employs this terminology.

Some Greek versions, finding the phrase utterly confounding (they had no idea of the idiomatic meaning), altogether left out the translation of the phrase, and hence omit the "not even" in Matthew - yet retain it in Luke. These ancient manuscripts are designated B, W, f1, 892 cop and even the Curetonian Syriac (one of the "Old Syriac" versions.)

The other Greek manuscripts which preserved this reading in Matthew are desginated S C K L X Delta Theta Pi f13 33 565 700 1010 1241 and even the Sinaitic Syriac (the other "Old Syriac" version.)

When we look at our modern English versions, we can see the differences caused by the ancient variants in the Greek versions.

The NASV, NIV, and TEV (among others) follows the former (erroneous) Greek text, omitting the "not even" phrase, while the KJV, ASV, RSV, and NEB (among others) preserve it.

Just imagine....we have f P0d begun to demonstrate textual variants from the other Gospels!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

In reply to message #0
 
Shalom l'kol m'amiyn b'Mshiakh,
>
>As Eusebius tells us, when the
>time came to translate Aramaic
>Matthew into Greek, it was
>quite a struggle. From
>his comment, one would assume
>that many 'variations' occured since
>people (plural) translated it differently
>in different locations and times.
>The examples of this historic struggle
>are numerous, as Akhi Dean
>Dana has already demonstrated a
>few.
>Here is another example, which happens
>to have a parallel in
>Luke.
>The verse in question is Mattai
>8:10, where the Messiah's words
>are recorded as follows in
>the Aramaic of the Peshitta
>(as I have translated it):
>Jwkl 0n0 rm0
>Nym0 (Truly (Amen) say I
>to you...)
>Ly0rsy0b f P0d
>(...that not even in Israel)
>Fwnmyh 0dh Ky0
>txk40 (...have I found faith
>like this)
>The parallel passage in Luke is
>7:9.
>The key to this example, and
>something that plagues any translator
>who is working on an
>Aramaic document, is the phrase
>f P0d
>which can't be translated exactly
>into any other language.
>Literally, it means "that also not",
>but figuratively and idiomatically it
>means "not even." This
>association between the literal and
>the figurative (idiomatic) occurs only
>in Aramaic.
>The parallel passage occurs in Luke
>at 7:9, where he also
>employs this terminology.
>Some Greek versions, finding the phrase
>utterly confounding (they had no
>idea of the idiomatic meaning),
>altogether left out the translation
>of the phrase, and hence
>omit the "not even" in
>Matthew - yet retain it
>in Luke. These ancient
>manuscripts are designated B, W,
>f1, 892 cop and
>even the Curetonian Syriac (one
>of the "Old Syriac" versions.)
>The other Greek manuscripts which preserved
>this reading in Matthew are
>desginated S C K L
>X Delta Theta Pi f13
>33 565 700 1010 1241
>and even the Sinaitic Syriac
>(the other "Old Syriac" version.)
>When we look at our modern
>English versions, we can see
>the differences caused by the
>ancient variants in the Greek
>versions.
>The NASV, NIV, and TEV (among
>others) follows the former (erroneous)
>Greek text, omitting the "not
>even" phrase, while the KJV,
>ASV, RSV, and NEB (among
>others) preserve it.
>Just imagine....we have >size="5"]f P0d begun to demonstrate
>textual variants from the other
>Gospels!
>
So I guess I don't understand. Are you saying Eusebius meant Luke translated Hebrew Matthew into Aramaic Luke?

I was under the impression Eusebius meant they translated 'Hebrew'(Aram.) Matthew into Greek as best they could.

Shlama
Iakov.
Iakov.

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi,

No, I mean Eusebius tells us that 'everyone' struggled with translating Matthew. That means they had trouble with the f P0d - some preserved it, some didn't.

The people responsible for Greek Luke, however, seem to have no problem with the phrase, since no copy of Greek Luke (that I'm aware of) is missing this phrase.

This could be explained by the fact that since Luke was a "Syrian" from Antioch ("Syrian", Herodotus tells us at the time, meant "Assyrian"), and that there was probably no shortage in Antioch of people who knew both languages, the idiom was preserved better.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Paul,
>
>No, I mean Eusebius tells us
>that 'everyone' struggled with translating
>Matthew. That means they
>had trouble with the >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5"]f P0d -
>some preserved it, some didn't.
>The people responsible for Greek Luke,
>however, seem to have no
>problem with the phrase, since
>no copy of Greek Luke
>(that I'm aware of) is
>missing this phrase.
>This could be explained by the
>fact that since Luke was
>a "Syrian" from Antioch ("Syrian",
>Herodotus tells us at the
>time, meant "Assyrian"), and that
>there was probably no shortage
>in Antioch of people who
>knew both languages, the idiom
>was preserved better.

Couldn't have said it better myself.
Thanks

Also Luke's translation of the original texts was enhanced by him interviewing eyewitnesses.

Shlama,
Iakov.