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%0D%0A%3Eused in their liturgy%2C why %0D%0A%3Eis this%3F %22%0D%0A%0D%0ADo you remember the conversation we had about the two different groups of the Peshitta%3F%0D%0A%0D%0AYou need to make a disctinction between the Church of the East Peshitta and the Westen Peshitta.%0D%0A%0D%0AWe call ours %22Peshitta%22 and so do they %28although they say %22Peshitto%22%29%0D%0A.

Dec-- at 00: AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

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1. RE: Peshitta

Sep-16-2000 at 11:44 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,


">Dear Akhi Paul:
>I asked Askme .com for a
>question concerning the Peshitta being
>the original New Testament, and
>they gave me two very
>negative answers. One said that
>the Peshitta depends too much
>upon the Greek and the
>dialect of the Peshitta is
>diferent from that of Maran
>Eshoa."

Well, there's 2 different questions you need to ask them there - see if you get a response to these questions, because I have a suspicion that the person you asked cannot even read Aramaic:

1 - Exactly HOW does the Peshitta depend on the Greek?

2 - Exactly HOW does the Aramaic dialect of the Peshitta differ from the Aramaic dialect of Maran Eshoa?

Remember, when you ask the "expert" this question, ask for *specifics*.

Then, ask if he/she would like to debate me publicly on the issues. Anytime, Anywhere.

See what responses you get to these questions.


">The other said that
>I need no help from
>you crtizing you without even
>knowing you."

That's fine - he/she could criticize all they want. I'm glad when my work gets that much attention.

When what I'm doing generates this much hatred (as you have seen during the past 2 weeks), I know I am doing something right.

In the meantime, I will continue to do what I am doing, finish this translation - I will discharge my duty - what I do after that will be very interesting.

I plan on going after these pseudo-experts (armed with the entire translation), and destroy their arguments one by one.


">I am disgusted
>with this pseudo intelectional Western
>Church properganda, they do not
>even know what they are
>talking about."

Me too. That's why I started this work, and that's why I'm going to complete it (God willing).

Hey, do me a favor. Ask the "expert" to tell you about the Pythogorean Theorum (a2 + b2 = c2). Ask him/her who invented it.


">As from now
>on I am leaving the
>Church Forever untill the Churches
>come to their senses and
>admit the truth. Why should
>I as a Jewish believer
>in Meshikha Eshoa have anything
>to do with the Western
>Church and their anti-semetic remarks?"

Leaving the "Church" is a bad idea. Your forefathers started the Church, and the Jewish Messiah is the object of worship in (most) of it.

If a particular denomination has an anti-Semitic attitude - then they are not really Christians at all. Anti-Semitic means Anti-Semitic-Messiah, it's just as simple as that.

Has the Western Church been thoroughly Hellenized? Sure they have. Has Western Civilization credited the Greeks with almost everything - while they invented almost nothing? Sure.

Are there any Churches which have not been taken over by Hellenization? Sure there are.

If you would feel more comfortable worshipping God in a Semitic atmosphere - there are choices available to you.

I feel more comfortable in my Church than I would anywhere else.

But, you will be attacked - always expect that. 2000 years we have been attacked, and it has not let up even today.

We live in a Muslim-dominated Middle East, and a Hellenized Western Christian Church. There's not much room there for the likes of me.

As for myself, as I said, as unpopular as this is going to be for the "experts" - I'm determined to finish this work. I will be attacked, ridiculed and harassed (as all have witnessed) by almost everyone.

In the end, I have my people - and my people have me. We have survived for t

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2. RE: Peshitta

Sep-17-2000 at 00:12 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Dear Akhi Paul:
They say that there are many Greek words inthe Peshitta,proving its Greek origin and that its grammar is not good semetic grammar but borowed from the Greeks. They also claim it is not of much help in restoring the underlying semetic roots of the New Testament. Is this really true or utter nonesense? They claim another dialect of aramaic is closer to what Maran Eshoo spoke and that Eshoo could not have understood the Peshitta dialect which they bluntly call Syraic, a derogatory term from the conquering Byzantines of Greek origin. The term simply is Greek for Syrian a people not a language. Many Peoples speak Aramaic in many dialects from many nations how then do people confine the language to Syria alone? In the Yemenite Jewish tradition when reading fromthe Torah scroll a young boy by memory recites its targum in Aramaic called Targum Onkelous and this is printed in many Chumashim Torah,Haftorah,and Megillot along with Rashi's comentarty in a Midevil Rabinic Hebrew script. If the Jews of today have a variety of scripts Rabinic , Modern and Book form, as well as a special Ashuri Square letter caligraphy for the Torah leather Scrolls hand writen today, why could they have not used Estrangela script for the New Testament as the Peshitta does and later the Yakobi Christians adopted a simplified Estrangela script called yakobi simmilar to Arabic but still only 22 letters like Hebrew and Aramaya, Lishona Qadisha if I am corect.Sam Shalom
Ps. The Beth suryo cite also says the Peshitta is a translation of the Greek although used in their liturgy, why is this?

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3. RE: Peshitta

Sep-17-2000 at 00:50 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

">Dear Akhi Paul:
>They say that there are many
>Greek words inthe Peshitta,proving its
>Greek origin and that its
>grammar is not good semetic
>grammar but borowed from the
>Greeks."

So wait a minute, these are the same people who said Aramaic is no longer spoken....only Arabic and English, right?

Are there some (not "many") Greek words in the Peshitta? Sure there are.....there are Greek words in Aramaic, there are Hebrew words in Aramaic, there are Akkadian words in Aramaic, there are Persian words in Aramaic.

Aramaic has borrowed words from many languages, just as those languages have borrowed words from Aramaic.

That does not prove what the manuscripts were written in.

The Greek manuscripts have *far* more Aramaic words in them than the Aramaic manuscripts have Greek words in them. Does that mean anything? Of course not.

The true test is comparing the manuscripts themselves.....next to each other.

As far as the Grammar statement, that is surprising since the person you have talked to has admitted that they do not speak Aramaic.

The fact is, the Aramaic of the Peshitta is purely Semitic grammar.....as I have proven on many occasions......but then again, they would not know that - since they don't speak it.


">They also claim it
>is not of much help
>in restoring the underlying semetic
>roots of the New Testament.
>Is this really true or
>utter nonesense?"

Utter nonsense.

You need to talk to one of our priests - Qasha@juno.com (a Sephardi by the way!)


">They claim another
>dialect of aramaic is closer
>to what Maran Eshoo spoke
>and that Eshoo could not
>have understood the Peshitta dialect"

Read the article on this forum by Steven Ring, who is actually studying Aramaic - not from these Arabic speaking people you are talking to.


">which they bluntly call Syraic,
>a derogatory term from the
>conquering Byzantines of Greek origin.
>The term simply is Greek
>for Syrian a people not
>a language."

Exactly. Read the Article by Dr. Simo Parpola in the "Ashur - Atour" thread which Akhi Dean posted.

Dr. Parpola (University of Helsinki) is one of our Eastern scholars.

"Syria" comes from the Greek word for "Assyria", which Herodotus (a Greek historian) has admitted.

When you hear the term "Syriac" - it means the language of the Assyrians, which of course is Aramaic.

That's what the Greeks called Aramaic - Syriac (the language of the Assyrians).

Read the Dr. Parpola article. It's a real eye-opener (especially to your Arabic-speaking Aramaic experts :7 )

">Many Peoples speak
>Aramaic in many dialects from
>many nations how then do
>people confine the language to
>Syria alone?"

Jealousy maybe?


">In the Yemenite
>Jewish tradition when reading fromthe
>Torah scroll a young boy
>by memory recites its targum
>in Aramaic called Targum Onkelous
>and this is printed in
>many Chumashim Torah,Haftorah,and Megillot along
>with Rashi's comentarty in a
>Midevil Rabinic Hebrew script."

Very true.

But you see, some people have to make a distinction between the Aramaic dialect spoken in Mesopotamia and the Aramaic dialects spoken in other times and places (hundreds opon hundreds of dialects).

This one is special you see. Because we don't want a living Church to be speaking the same language as Maran Eshoa did. That would not be good. Too much

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4. RE: Peshitta

Sep-17-2000 at 01:12 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Dear Akhi Paul:
The person that I spoke with on the phone is not the askme.com person, He is a priest of a Orthodox Antiochian Church were they use Arabic and mostly English. He is the one who says that the Arab musliums get along so well with the Christians I doubt this. He also says that the Church follows the Byzantine liturgy, that is not the same as the Aramaic is it? He also uses Ikons in worship,I read that the Armenian churches and most Syrian Orthodox have only the cross as a symbol of worship and that the Asyrian Eastern Church never worships at images what so ever.By the way Nestorius was not the founder of the Asyrian Church just the Patriarch of Constantonople at one time. Also he was no heretic, but mis understood and malined by the jelious gready Byzantine government.Rather we use the term Theotokos or Christotokos it is still the same doctrine of Christ being both man and Deity, two natures or perons being one without seperation.I heard that Nestorius did not like the term Theotokos because of the emphesis of exalting Maryam the Mother of Eshoo as an object of worship and the term Christotokos bear of Meshikha shows that why Maryam was the mother of Meshikha she was not a Goddess or any part of the diety of Meshikha. What do you think? Is this not all semantics only? The Asyrian Church has never been guilty of hersay only misunderstood and unfounatlely slandered. Sam Shlama Rabba Shema Maran Eshoa Meshikha, Ameen. ps. the answer I recieved along with asking them the new questions you sugested I sent them your email address response so they can email you the question and the answer in case I got anything wrong there wiill be no doubt about what was said.

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5. RE: Peshitta

Sep-17-2000 at 01:23 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Shlama Akhi Shmuel,

">Dear Akhi Paul:
>The person that I spoke with
>on the phone is not
>the askme.com person, He is
>a priest of a Orthodox
>Antiochian Church were they use
>Arabic and mostly English."

Yes, they use Arabic now instead of Aramaic.

">He
>is the one who says
>that the Arab musliums get
>along so well with the
>Christians I doubt this."

Maybe that's because they switched to Arabic.

Those of us who never switched were always persecuted.

">He
>also says that the Church
>follows the Byzantine liturgy, that
>is not the same as
>the Aramaic is it?"

No, it is not.

Their Church follows the Byzantine Liturgy, mine does not.

Do you remember what empire they were in? That whole discussion?

">He
>also uses Ikons in worship,I
>read that the Armenian churches
>and most Syrian Orthodox have
>only the cross as a
>symbol of worship and that
>the Asyrian Eastern Church
>never worships at images what
>so ever."

That's true. Like the Byzantine (Greek) Orthodox Church, the Syrian Orthodox have images and icons in their Churches.

The Assyrian Church (Church of the East) does not.

">By the way Nestorius
>was not the founder of
>the Asyrian Church just the
>Patriarch of Constantonople at one
>time. Also he was no
>heretic, but mis understood and
>malined by the jelious gready
>Byzantine government."


I could not have said it any better.

He was not our founder, but we venerate him as a saint because he was persecuted for the true Faith.

">Rather we use the
>term Theotokos or Christotokos it
>is still the same doctrine
>of Christ being both man
>and Deity, two natures or
>perons being one without seperation.I
>heard that Nestorius did not
>like the term Theotokos because
>of the emphesis of exalting
>Maryam the Mother of Eshoo
>as an object of worship
>and the term Christotokos bear
>of Meshikha shows that why
>Maryam was the mother of
>Meshikha she was not a
>Goddess or any part of
>the diety of Meshikha. What
>do you think? Is this
>not all semantics only?"

Yes, I do believe it is a issue of semantics only, that's why Mar Dinkha and Pope John Paul II had settled the disagreement in 1994.


">The
>Asyrian Church has never been
>guilty of hersay only misunderstood
>and unfounatlely slandered."

I agree with you. So does Pope John Paul II.

">ps. the answer I
>recieved along with asking them
>the new questions you sugested
>I sent them your email
>address response so they can
>email you the question and
>the answer in case I
>got anything wrong there wiill
>be no doubt about what
>was said. "

OK, I will be waiting for it. I will also post all of it on this forum for you all to see.

I have not received anything yet, I will notify you when I do.


Shlama w'Burkate,
Paul

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Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

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