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Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

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Iakov
 
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Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-08-2001 at 12:50 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Shlama Andrew,


If I understand this correctly when Eshoo said 'You have heard it said...but I say to you...', we are witnessing the transition of oral tradition much like the above subject title?

Halakah has to do, per Alfred Edersheim, with, Sh'ma, what is heard, where as Haggadah is what is said. So Eshoo declares the Halakah first then clarifies with a Haggadah? Even though traditionally Halakah carried more weight than Haggadah?

Please help me with this a little Andrew when you have time.

Even if we assume Greek is the original text, one gets closer to the actual sayings of Mar Eshoo M'shiakh when we understand that oral teachings were passed down in Aramaic. Having been penned first by Matthew verbatim, or at least nearly verbatim one can more clearly understand the original intention as they were spoken.

Honestly we lose the impact of the sayings when translated to Gr. even if the Gr. was original text. However we lose the force of the Gr. syntax when we ignore the Gr text.

I'm thinking I will carry a Peshitta for the sayings and the GNT for everything else. Paul is right that the Gr. text is still a translation of Eshoo's sayings.

I need to finish Aramaic Grammar first. Any progress. I know you haven't been busy Paul.

Shlama,
Iakov

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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1. RE: Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-08-2001 at 12:58 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Iakov,

>I need to finish Aramaic Grammar
>first. Any progress. I know
>you haven't been busy Paul.
>

Not all all. Actually, I am in a slump and have to "get back" to the grammar and interlinear.
Soon. Very soon.

By the way, for the most incredible Aramaic Grammar website, check out https://www.assyrianlanguage.com

This is the most complete and advanced website about Aramaic Grammar. I'm thinking about trashing mine and directly linking to this page from the button on the left. This way, I can concentrate on my strength, which is translating, rather than on one of my weaknesses - which is teaching.

Mr. Aldawood is using the Grammar of Yukhanan bar-Zawbe, who in the 12th century AD, wrote THE authoritative work on Eastern Aramaic grammar and pronunciation. This website comes complete with ACTUAL RECORDING OF PRONUNCIATION!

Would anyone seriously object if I replaced my humble Grammar with this vastly superior one?


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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2. Come on.....

Aug-08-2001 at 02:47 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
I won't be hurt.......

In the absence of any objections, I'll link directly to that site and that can be our "grammar."

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
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5. RE: Come on.....

Aug-08-2001 at 06:22 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Link to it if it is good Akhi, but I like your grammar too, so keep it and maybe have both for a while if you can.

BTW...my article's estrangela fonts which worked fine in my word document, does not seem to be coming out on Beth Gaza. The Hebrew fonts are fine.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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7. RE: Come on.....

Aug-09-2001 at 10:31 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama Akhi,

Yes, I just noticed that now as well. It seems that you may have used an earlier version of the Estrangelo font (this one is not encoded as Version 1.1)

I'll fix this later tonight....


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Dean
 
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10. RE: Come on.....

Aug-12-2001 at 03:52 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Akhi Paul,

Actually I've very much enjoyed your Grammar. And got allot out of it.

Dean Dana

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Iakov
 
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3. RE: Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-08-2001 at 04:30 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Paul,

The grammar seems adequate but will you continue to give New Testament grammatical lessons? This will be very important. Also I will have to learn the Serto script it appears.

Should I purchase the Compendious Syriac Lexicon?

Shlama,
Iakov.

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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8. RE: Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-09-2001 at 10:34 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi,

The Compendious Syriac Dictionary is a very good thing to have, if you can stomach the serto script (most people strongly dislike it.)

I will continue to give NT grammar lessons, so that will never be an issue. I just really like the way Alan has structured his lessons, and how he has designed the website.

The only drawback is that it is written in the Swadaya script, with barely any reference to the Estrangelo. I know this was done to fascilitate the use of vowel points, and this makes it much easier to teach and learn - so the tradeoff was good.


Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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John Marucci
 
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6. RE: Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-08-2001 at 10:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Akhi Paul,

While Mr. Aldawood's grammar page is truly impressive, he hasn't gotten very far with it yet. Until he has progressed at least as far as you have, I would suggest you keep yours on-line.

Shlama,
John Marucci

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9. RE: Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-09-2001 at 10:35 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama Akhi John,

Thanks for the advice. I think that's the perfect approach. I'll ask him if he would mind if I link directly to his site.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
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4. RE: Halakah-Haggadah & Oral Tradition

Aug-08-2001 at 06:19 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
>Shlama Andrew,
>
>
>If I understand this correctly when
>Eshoo said 'You have heard
>it said...but I say to
>you...', we are witnessing the
>transition of oral tradition much
>like the above subject title?


SHLAMA AKHI IAKOV.
>
>
>Halakah has to do, per Alfred
>Edersheim, with, Sh'ma, what is
>heard, where as Haggadah is
>what is said. So Eshoo
>declares the Halakah first then
>clarifies with a Haggadah? Even
>though traditionally Halakah carried more
>weight than Haggadah?


I THINK WE NEED TO CLARIFY SOME TERMS HERE. "HAGADDAH" IS MORE PROPERLY UNDERSTOOD AS A KIND OF FOLK TRADITION. THE TALMUD CONTAINS THE MISHNAH WHICH ARE LEGAL DISCUSSIONS AND THE GEMARA WHICH ARE ADDITIONS TO THE BIBLICAL RECORD ABOUT BIBLICAL FIGURES. IN OTHER CASES, HAGADDAH REFERS USING OFFICIAL TEXTS FOR CEREMONIAL USAGE WITH SOME TOGGLING BETWEEN MISHNAH AND BIBLE. AT PASSOVER FOR EXAMPLE, WE READ FROM A "HAGGADAH" WHICH HAS BIBLE VERSES AND RABBINIC COMENTARY.

WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT IS DIFFERENT. THERE IS WRITTEN HALAKHA AND ORAL HALAKHA BUT THEY ARE BOTH LEGAL IN NATURE, NOT STORY BASED. THE ORAL LAW IS OFFICIALLY CALLED "TORAH SHE BE AL PEH" (TORAH THAT IS UPON THE MOUTH). SINCE BOTH Y'SHUA AND THE PHARISEES ARE "SPEAKING" WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TWO INTERPETATIONS OF ORAL LAW, NOT WRITTEN VERSUS ORAL LAW.

WHEN Y'SHUA SAYS, "YOU HAVE HEARD THAT IT WAS SAID...BUT i SAY TO YOU..." HE IS REPLACING HIS HALAKHA (ORAL UNDERSTANDING OF TORAH) ABOVE THE LEGALISTIC AND RITUALISTIC PHARISEES. BUT-- AAGAIN-- BOTH PHARISEES AND Y'SHUA VENERATE A KIND OF ORAL LAW. THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE PHARISEES TOOK THE ORAL LAW AND LAID ON EXTRA RITUALS, "FENCES" AND LEGALISMS, WHEREAS Y'SHUA PREACHED A MORE FREER UNDERSTANDING.

SO IT IS MORE ONE ORAL LAW ENCUMBERED AND ANOTHER NOT AS OPPOSED TO ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH "HAGGADAH".

PHARISEES AND Y'SHUA AGREE ON BOTH WRITTEN AND ORAL LAW, BUT NOT INTERPETATIONS THEREOF. SADUCCEES ONLY HOLD TO WRITTEN LAW.

HOPE THIS HELPS!
>

SHLAMA W'BURKATE
ANDREW GABRIEL ROTH
>Please help me with this a
>little Andrew when you have
>time.
>
>Even if we assume Greek is
>the original text, one gets
>closer to the actual sayings
>of Mar Eshoo M'shiakh when
>we understand that oral teachings
>were passed down in Aramaic.
>Having been penned first by
>Matthew verbatim, or at least
>nearly verbatim one can more
>clearly understand the original intention
>as they were spoken.
>
>Honestly we lose the impact of
>the sayings when translated to
>Gr. even if the Gr.
>was original text. However we
>lose the force of the
>Gr. syntax when we ignore
>the Gr text.
>
>I'm thinking I will carry a
>Peshitta for the sayings and
>the GNT for everything else.
>Paul is right that the
>Gr. text is still a
>translation of Eshoo's sayings.
>
>I need to finish Aramaic Grammar
>first. Any progress. I know
>you haven't been busy Paul.
>
>
>Shlama,
>Iakov


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