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cross (a word causing discomfort ?!?!?!?! )

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Larry19
 
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cross (a word causing discomfort ?!?!?!?! )

Sep-09-2001 at 09:11 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

I work with a person whose religious belief abstains from the word 'cross'. They highly prefer the expression 'torture stake'. 'Cross' in Greek is 'stauros'. Much to my shock, Vine's Expository Dictionary has a tendency to 'lean their way', while Alfred Edersheim in his 'Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah', does not 'lean their way' at all. I found two entries in the lexical concordance from peshitta.org for 'cross'-
#17785 TSLiYB,aA, and #5902 ZQiYP,aA. Would these shed any extra light on the subject and why are the two entries totally unidentical? This particular organization seems terribly dogmatic about this 'torture stake' business for reasons I can't discern. Can anyone help clear this up or are we both "straining out gnats and swallowing camels"?

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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1. RE: cross (a word causing discomfort ?!?!?!?! )

Sep-10-2001 at 03:03 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Larry,

On the two Aramaic words 0pyqz and 0bylc:

0pyqz is a noun that is derived from the Aramaic verbal root Pqz meaning 'To lift up, to elevate, to erect, etc.' So, literally, 0pyqz is really anything that's 'lifted up', but in the Christian usage it means 'the Cross.'

0bylc on the other hand, is a noun that is derived from the verbal root Blc, which means only 'to crucify' - it's only meaning is 'The Cross.'

I hope this helps!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Keith
 
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2. A common ploy

Sep-10-2001 at 10:35 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
I grew up Mormon and much like the Jehohovah's Witnesses we majored in the minor. It wasn't until I was born again that I saw this for what it was. It is a common ploy of most of the pseudo-christian religions to trap the unsuspecting christian into believing they have some, heretofore, unknown or little known, fact that supposedly discredits orthodox religious beliefs.
The suggestion that Jesus was executed on an executioner's stake (Greek=stauros) and not a cross is a well known and easily dismissed tactic of the Jehovah's Witnesses to try to lure christians to their religion by some supposed superiority of knowledge (Mormon's however believe in a crucifixion on a cross). The key verse is John 20:25.
In Paul Younan's (excellent) transliteration of this verse he translates this verse "...in His hands, the places of the nails..." Dr. Trimm corroborates this translation in his HRV "... Unless I see in his hands the places of the nails..." The key word is nails not cross or stake.
The Peshitta's lexicon has this word as #17863 and this word is plural not singular. How important is this?
If one is executed on a stake both hands are impaled with a single nail above the head. Not so with a cross. At least two nails are required for this type of execution.
Hope this helps.
Keith L. Fuller

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4. RE: A common ploy

Sep-11-2001 at 01:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Thanks Keith for a very thorough answer and for opening up to people such as myself in a way that many people feel very squeamish about. So many prefer not to share their spiritual history or heritage. Revelation is right you know, we still "overcome by the blood of the Lamb AND our testimony."

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3. RE: cross (a word causing discomfort ?!?!?!?! )

Sep-11-2001 at 10:35 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Thanks for your reply Paul. It's my understanding then, that there is no way one can interpret this one word as 'torture stake',right? The only way the word 'torture' fits in this scenario, linguistically at least, is Vic Alexander's verse and comment on John 19:17. In the verse he has... "but in the Hebrew which is called, "The Arena of Truth-through-torture,"...
In the footnote he has- Ga-gulta means reveal-through-torture, the precursor of the torture chamber or area. https://v-a.com/bible/
By the way, what does 'shlama akhi' mean? I presume 'shlama' is the equivalent of Hebrew 'shalom'. One very indignant reply on a particular website was "shalom doesn't mean peace!" I was a little taken aback by that. Could you comment and inform of what 'akhi' means as well? P.S. No one seems to want to tackle my question concerning 'nataph'. Is this a hard word to find an Aramaic equivalent of?

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5. RE: cross (a word causing discomfort ?!?!?!?! )

Sep-11-2001 at 01:07 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Larry,

You are correct, Shlama means 'peace' - but it is also used idiomatically as a greeting ('hello'). Akhi means 'my brother', from 'Akh' (brother) and the possessive suffix 'i' (pronounced 'ee'), meaning 'mine.'

You are correct again in that neither word in the Aramaic can mean torture stake.

I just saw your post about Nataph, I'll reply shortly in that thread.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

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