Assyrian Forums
 Home  |  Ads  |  Partners  |  Sponsors  |  Contact  |  FAQs  |  About  
 
   Holocaust  |  History  |  Library  |  People  |  TV-Radio  |  Forums  |  Community  |  Directory
  
   General  |  Activism  |  Arts  |  Education  |  Family  |  Financial  |  Government  |  Health  |  History  |  News  |  Religion  |  Science  |  Sports
   Greetings · Shläma · Bärev Dzez · Säludos · Grüße · Shälom · Χαιρετισμοί · Приветствия · 问候 · Bonjour · 挨拶 · تبریکات  · Selamlar · अभिवादन · Groete · التّحيّات

Simon, the Leper

Archived: Read only    Previous Topic Next Topic
Home Forums Peshitta Topic #681
Help Print Share
Biga
 
Send email to BigaSend private message to BigaView profile of BigaAdd Biga to your contact list
 
Member:
Posts: 193
Member Feedback

Simon, the Leper

Oct-09-2001 at 12:40 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Hello dear All,

Meanwhile reading the translation of James about Simon as jar merchant I think it could be useful to clear this verse. I would like only share what I found in this topic, I hope the local experts can help. I searched the Lexicon and found that the leper, "garba" has only this meaning, but is is doubtless, the word jar, "graba" has very similar form. (as James wrote in his topic) But where is the word "merchant"? Because the words potter, thrower has totally another form as "jar", "leper".

I tried talk with James about this verse remarking that the argue of James, that an alabaster box was found in his house, can not be accepted, because the woman owned this box.

The Holman dictionary suggests that the "leprosy" was a general word to refer some another skin diseases. The phisicians could contradistinguish the most skin diseases, at least between harmful ones and the dangerous ones. If anyone interested in, the Dictionary refers to some passage where the leprosy can mean another skin disease.

If we analyse the greek word, lepros (3015):
1. scaly, rough
2. leprous, affected with leprosy

So in my opinion the greek word maybe can mean also another skin diseases not only leprosy, not so dangerous what need total separation from the city. It could be just a nickname too.

Many people suggest that Simon was identical to Lazarus who lived also in Bethany. Interesting, the word "lazar" can also mean leper, at least my hungarian-english dictionary contains this meaning.

with Love,
Gabor

Print Top

 
Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

1. RE: Simon, the Leper

Oct-11-2001 at 12:10 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Gabor,

If you check the "Compendious Syriac Dictionary" by Payne-Margouliath, you will see an entry there for "Garaba" that means "Potter, Jar-Maker" or something like that meaning.

I'll try to scan the pages in soon and show you.

I agree here with James that the best translation is "Potter/Jar-Maker" and not "Leper."

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top
Biga
 
Send email to BigaSend private message to BigaView profile of BigaAdd Biga to your contact list
 
Member:
Posts: 193
Member Feedback

2. RE: Simon, the Leper

Oct-15-2001 at 09:32 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Thank you, Akhi Paul,

you should not copy it, I belive you

Can we find more references to this word in the Pesitta where it means potter too?

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

3. RE: Simon, the Leper

Oct-16-2001 at 11:40 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Last edited by Paul Younan on Oct-16-2001 at 11:49 AM (CT)

Shlama Akhi Gabor,

There is no other reference to this word in the Peshitta using this context (potter) except for the indirect reference to "jar/skin of water" in Luke 22:10 - where, incidentally, there is a wordplay between 0rbg (man) and 0brg (jar.)

Keep in mind - there is no place in the Peshitta that has the words "cat, cow" or "concordance" , either. But they definitely exist in Aramaic.

The word "Garaba" is used every day by modern speakers when they want to say "potter" - which is a very ancient profession in Mesopotamia.

I can't help but to think that perhaps the two words are similiar because potters worked with wet clay which must have made their arms look like they were lepers. Maybe ?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top
rdf
 
Send email to rdfSend private message to rdfAdd rdf to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

4. RE: Simon, the Leper

Feb-08-2002 at 09:25 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Younan,

>If you check the "Compendious Syriac
>Dictionary" by Payne-Margouliath, you will
>see an entry there for
>"Garaba" that means "Potter, Jar-Maker"
>or something like that meaning.

From the statement above I want to know as follows:

1. Why did you choose the "Compendious Syriac Dictionary" than the others? and may I know how far the important of this dictionary ?
2. Is the word "Garaba" only in the Greek MSS or include in the Peshitta text?
3. What is actually the name of the manuscripts which contain the word "Garaba" ? and if you don't mind how old the manuscripts is when we compare with the oldest Greek manuscripts which contain that word.

>I'll try to scan the pages
>in soon and show you.
>
>
>I agree here with James that
>the best translation is "Potter/Jar-Maker"
>and not "Leper."


And may I know every step of analysis so you summarize the best translation is "Potter/Jar-Maker" and not "Leper"?

Thank you in advance.

Alaha Natir L'oukh,

Rudolf

Print Top
Biga
 
Send email to BigaSend private message to BigaView profile of BigaAdd Biga to your contact list
 
Member:
Posts: 193
Member Feedback

5. RE: Simon, the Leper

Feb-09-2002 at 09:59 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Dear akhi Rudolf,

Altough I'm a very happy aramaic primacist I have doubts with this verse. I wrote earlier to James but he did not answer.

I feel more real that this man was earlier leper, he was healed and become this nickname for memory. Who said this kind of nickname is impossible I can say as example the name of Bartimeus - which mean Son of the Unclean.

The verse does not say also that the woman used an alabaster box in the house but said "the woman having the alabaster box" so she can bring it.

cheers,
Gabor


Print Top
rdf
 
Send email to rdfSend private message to rdfAdd rdf to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

6. RE: Simon, the Leper

Feb-10-2002 at 09:40 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #5
 
Shlama Akhi Gabor,


>Altough I'm a very happy aramaic
>primacist I have doubts
>with this verse. I wrote
>earlier to James but he
>did not answer.
>
>I feel more real that this
>man was earlier leper, he
>was healed and become this
>nickname for memory. Who said
>this kind of nickname is
>impossible I can say as
>example the name of Bartimeus
>- which mean Son of
>the Unclean.
>
>The verse does not say also
>that the woman used an
>alabaster box in the house
>but said "the woman having
>the alabaster box" so she
>can bring it.

I have another assumption of the verse. We can see Mathew 10:3
"Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;

Matthew is always called the tax collector but it doesn't seem to me he still did the job after Maran Eshoo called him as a disiciple.

Maybe?

Regards,

Rudolf


Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

7. RE: Simon, the Leper

Feb-10-2002 at 09:58 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #4
 
Shlama Akhi Rudolf,

>1. Why did you choose the
>"Compendious Syriac Dictionary" than the
>others? and may I know
>how far the important of
>this dictionary ?

This is a very important dictionary and the standard work which all people use when studying this dialect of Aramaic, in particular.

>2. Is the word "Garaba" only
>in the Greek MSS or
>include in the Peshitta text?

That word, "Garaba" is Aramaic and is only in the Peshitta text and not the Greek.

>And may I know every step
>of analysis so you summarize
>the best translation is "Potter/Jar-Maker"
>and not "Leper"?

It was a very simple process - it can be translated either "potter" or "leper" - but I think contextually "potter" makes more sense.

It would be pretty mean-spirited to keep calling someone a "leper" even years after they'd been cleansed - don't you think?

I mean - nobody went around calling Lazarus "the stiff." :P

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top
Biga
 
Send email to BigaSend private message to BigaView profile of BigaAdd Biga to your contact list
 
Member:
Posts: 193
Member Feedback

8. RE: Simon, the Leper

Feb-11-2002 at 09:15 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Dear akhi Paul,

"It would be pretty mean-spirited to keep calling someone a "leper" even years after they'd been cleansed - don't you think?"

and what is your opinion about the name Bartimeus? You explained me, that it mean "Timi Jr" , Timi means "unclean". You think, his father was never uncleansed and he inherit this bad name?

p.s. did you get my music? You can say baldly if it is not your style

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

9. RE: Simon, the Leper

Feb-11-2002 at 06:01 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 
Shlama Akhi Gabor,

I did get your song and I love it! It is my style, by the way. I just forgot to post it in the confused mayhem of 2 weeks ago.

I'll try to get to that tonight.

The issue about "Bar-Timi" - you're right, but I still think that "Leper" is a worse term because if people called him that nobody would get near him!

Imagine going around calling someone "Steve the Ebola-Carrier!"

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

Print Top

Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic


Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

Please consider the environment when disposing of this material — read, reuse, recycle. ♻
AIM | Atour: The State of Assyria | Terms of Service