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Help Please

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howard
 
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Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 12:40 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

A) I cannot find anything to help parse the following phrase tn0 +4wm <dy0 dk
The Lexicon search problem (ref "Questions...." Jun-27-2001) doesn't seem to have been fixed yet, and the excellent Grammar has not progressed far enough yet - seems to be a participle construction, but in a yet not covered verb-form.

B) A posting by Mr John Marucci on Jun-14-2001 covering paradigm tables, mentioned "... I will make freely available on the web...". Are these available yet? and at what URL?

Thanks for any assistance.
Howard Grimmer (New Zealand)

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Rob
 
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1. RE: Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 02:55 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Hi Howard,

Concerning the phrase:
tn0 +4wm <dy0 dk
I think it would translate something like:

"When you (hold out/offer) your hand"

the verb is a I-y:+4y
You are correct, it is a participle, which has a weak first root letter, a yod, which becomes a waw in the participle.

Hope this helps,

Br


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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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4. RE: Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 03:27 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Rob,

Very good.

Akhi Howard - what is the context ? BTW - dk could mean "after, while, where" in addition to "when" depending on context.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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2. RE: Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 03:06 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Howard,

Unfortunately, the Estrangelo font encoding uses some special characters (like +,= and $) (characters + , = and $ , respectively) that the Internet Protocol for URL submission reserves as special characters.
The problem is, these characters are passed along as arguments to the CGI script that searches the Lexical Database. Being special characters reserved for the Internet CGI protocol, they are not processed correctly and if you're searching for a word with these characters, the search will not work. The words are on the database, it's just that the search doesn't work properly.

I haven't quite yet figured out how to resolve this issue. It's quite embarassing being a programmer and all - but the Internet is not my area of expertise.

Anyone (Internet Programmer, preferably) out there who knows of a potential solution ?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Biga
 
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3. RE: Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 03:27 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Dear Akhi Paul,

it is no possibility to install a database server (like SQL server) driven by for example, Java? I don't know the technical background in this server, I ask only....

I plain in the near future to create a site, installing WebSpeed or Progress database server, which I programming in 4GL, not in script. I can offer this to build a new lexicon. But I will ask our intranet developer maybe he has a good idea.

cheers,
Gabor


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5. RE: Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 03:30 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #3
 
Shlama Akhi Gabor,

It's a MySQL database on a Linux server. The CGI program is written in Perl, using DBI as the interface to the database.

The problem is that certain characters in the font, which are stored in the database, are reserved characters - according to the CGI protocol. This prevents proper parsing on the URL line (hence, the database does not return any results when searching with these 3 special characters.)

Any advice you guys could give would be welcome...I'll keep searching the web, too. I can't be the first person who's run into this problem.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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discipledaniel
 
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6. RE: Help Please

Nov-12-2001 at 07:11 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Hey Paul,

What about doing a couple of more routines to convert each character into a middle ground, like XML does for the < and > characters? You'd just assign characters and do a little conversion. Checkout section 2.5 of this document(https://dublincore.org/documents/2001/04/11/dcmes-xml/) for the characters XML does. That's what comes to my mind...

God Bless,

Daniel

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howard
 
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7. RE: Help Please

Nov-13-2001 at 02:05 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Thanks people, or if I may say, Akhay

The context (which I did not say on purpose) is Acts 4:29-30. In the English this passage reads awkwardly (which I always find suspicious), and in the Greek it seems, from my amateur acquaintance, to be a special (difficult?)construction - which causes translators to English to translate more from their own personal theological viewpoint (which is of course why I myself am interested). (I have been sensing for some time now that perhaps the Greek texts were not the original -so many difficult (and obscure) passages for one thing, so am intensely interested to investigate the likelihood of 'Aramaic primacy'- so very pleased to find this website!) Anyway, I will be hoping that you will find from the context (if you can put aside theology (which I am obviously not)) that the particle dk translates well as "while", but if not, let truth prevail! (or maybe the Aramaic is not the original here ). (The importance of small words!)

Rob, thanks for your reply. The word +4y does not appear to be in the Peshitta, but I have found the following: +4w0 , +4p , +4pttd , +w4p , t+4pt0 which all seem to be related. Is +4y the root for all these? I am also confused by the construction - the use of the tn0 seems to indicate a Perfect Peal Active Participle (or should it be joined to the verb to show that?), but the preceding m seems to indicate an Infinitive (ref. tn0 +4wm ). Can you explain further please?

Maran Atha
Howard Grimmer

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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8. RE: Help Please

Nov-13-2001 at 05:30 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Shlama Akhi Howard,

Yes, it's an Active Participle tense, but not of the PEAL. I'll have to look this up but I do believe it's a Quadriliteral. And the root is correct (try searching the lexicon on the English phrase "stretch out" - I know, at least, that should work .)

+4y is a root that is closely related to +4p (Pshat - straighten, stretch out, make not crooked, make simple, make obvious), from which the name (actually, the Adjective) "Peshitta" is derived.

The two verbal roots mean "straighten" or "stretch out."

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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howard
 
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13. RE: Help Please

Nov-15-2001 at 02:45 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #8
 
>Shlama Akhi Howard,
>

>And the root is correct
>(try searching the lexicon on
>the English phrase "stretch out"
>- I know, at least,
>that should work .)
>

Thankyou Paul, that did work fine - there is no hint that you can use a phrase search, so I hadn't tried it - just single words.

Thanks again
Howard
Howard

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Rob
 
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10. RE: Help Please

Nov-13-2001 at 06:11 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #7
 
Hi Howard,

I too am beginning to learn Aramaic, so there are certainly others who can give better answers, but my understanding is that tn0 +4wm follows a regular pattern found throughout the Peshitta, and that is a participle followed by a pronoun. The participle, unlike the imperfect and perfect verbal forms, has no person marker. It only tells you number and gender, so it needs to be accompanied by a pronoun in order to complete the communication. Thats all thats happening here. Is is an Aphel masculine singular active participle of +4y followed by the 2nd person singular pronoun, tn0 .

I would say that +4y and +4p are probably etymologically related.

Hope this helps,

Br
Rob

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howard
 
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12. RE: Help Please

Nov-15-2001 at 02:45 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #10
 
>is an Aphel masculine singular
>active participle of followed by the
>2nd person singular pronoun, >face="Estrangelo (V1.1)" size="5"]tn0 .
>
>
>Hope this helps,
>
>Br
>Rob

Thanks Rob
Yes, I can see now that it is fits as you say to the Aphel pattern. My next question of course is - what does 'Aphel' signify - eg Peal equates to Qal in Hebrew, Pael to Piel - therefore generally the intensive of Peal/Qal etc.

Thanks
Howard

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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14. RE: Help Please

Nov-15-2001 at 02:51 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #12
 
Last edited by Paul Younan on Nov-15-2001 at 02:52 PM (CT)

Shlama Akhi Howard,

I hope I can bud in for Akhi Rob here and say that I believe the Aphel conjugation in Aramaic is cognate with the Hiphel conjugation in Hebrew (it's used in a causitive sense.)

Hope this helps!

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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9. RE: Help Please

Nov-13-2001 at 05:33 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #6
 
Shlama Akhi Daniel,

Thanks for the tip - let me digest this for a little while and see if it's applicable in our case.

I have a bad feeling that the "=" sign is still a problem even with this solution since the "=" sign is used to associate key/value pairs on the URL. Most CGI scripts then parse the data based on it's position relative to the "=" sign.

That's a problem for our font.

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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discipledaniel
 
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11. RE: Help Please

Nov-13-2001 at 08:18 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #9
 
Greetings Paul,

I have a little more time now, I'll elaborate what I was thinking... although I haven't tried it myself, so I don't know if it will work.

We need ways to do + = and $ for the lexicon. Based on how XML handles problem characters I would define + as + = as &equal;(tried sum, but it's apparently already taken) and $ as &doll; or &cash; or something like that. They can be anything you want.

Implementing it could get tricky in the current setup. Maybe a little javascript to search the input and replace problem characters, or something like that. Then in your script you can replace the &whatever; with the character to search for in the database.

Like I said, I don't know if it will work, but it's how I would approach the problem.

God Bless,

Daniel

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15. RE: Help Please

Nov-19-2001 at 05:19 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #11
 
Shlama Akhi Daniel,

Thanks for the info - I've found a "Java Expert" at work and we're going to try and tackle this problem during the following week.

Keep your fingers crossed ......

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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