Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Nov-28-2001 at 12:40 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #0
Shlama Akhi Rudolf, The CoE has recently, since 1978, decreed that for the membership in Western countries it is acceptable to celebrate this day in accord with the rest of the Christians in those countries. Traditionally (before 1978), the CoE has not kept Dec. 25th nor does it have the traditions which originated in Northern Europe like Yule logs, Evergreen trees or the like (as these things do not exist in the deserts of the Middle East. ) According to our traditions, the feast of the 'Ephiphany' ("Dinkha" in Aramaic) commemorates both the Birth and Baptism of the Messiah - and this has traditionally been held on January 6th. According to the unknown Syrian annotator of Barsalibi (Assemani, Bibl. Orient., II, 163): "The Lord was born in the month of January on the same day on which we celebrate the Epiphany; for of old the feasts of the Nativity and Epiphany were kept on one and the same day, because on the same day He was born and baptized. The reason why our fathers changed the solemnity celebrated on 6 January, and transferred it to 25 December follows: it was the custom of the heathens to celebrate the birthday of the sun on this very day, 25 December, and on it they lit lights on account of the feast. In these solemnities and festivities the Christians too participated. When, therefore, the teachers observed that the Christians were inclined to this festival, they took counsel and decided that the true birth-feast be kept on this day, and on 6 Jan., the feast of the Epiphanies. Simultaneously, therefore, with this appointment the custom prevailed of burning lights until the sixth day." Therefore much of what Dr. Trimm writes is true, but the argument is nothing new nor has it been only argued by Jews - but churches in the East have been critical about this for quite some time (although most churches in the East now keep the day too as it has become popular, especially if they live in the West.) Additionally, Mar Aprim (St. Ephraem) tells us in his Homilies on the Epiphany that Christ was born on January 6th and not on December 25th. It was always kept 13 days after the winter solstice - which places the date on Jan. 6th according to the western calendar. I agree with essentially most of James Trimm's article - but I see no harm in varying traditions and I myself celebrate this day because I live in the United States and my fellow Christians here keep it - so I will, too, even though the rest of the CoE in the middle east does not. Hopefully I won't suffer eternal hell fire for it.  Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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Dec-02-2001 at 08:44 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
Shlama Akh Younan, >The CoE has recently, since 1978, >decreed that for the membership >in Western countries it is >acceptable to celebrate this day >in accord with the rest >of the Christians in those >countries. Traditionally (before 1978), >the CoE has not kept >Dec. 25th nor does it >have the traditions which originated >in Northern Europe like Yule >logs, Evergreen trees or the >like (as these things do >not exist in the deserts >of the Middle East. ) If you don't mind would you tell me the policy of the Church to change the Christmas from Jan 6 to Dec 25? Thank you. Rudolf
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Dec-03-2001 at 09:28 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #2
Shlama Akhi Rudolf, In 1978, Mar Eshai Shimun who was the Patriarch then succumbed to pressure from the American parishes of the CoE to change it to Dec. 25th so that the parishioners would not have an awkward schedule with work, etc., since the rest of the country kept it on the 25th. In my opinion, that was a bad mistake. I would rather have awkward scheduling than to change something so important for such a silly reason. The Armenians, for instance, still keep it on the 6th even though they might live in the U.S. Anyway, this caused a major break in the CoE and now there are 2 "halves" - one under a rival Patriach (Mar Addai in Baghdad) and one under Mar Dinkha (in Chicago). Mar Addai and most of the churches in Iraq refused to follow Mar Eshai Shimun (and his successor, Mar Dinkha) in changing the calendar - so this rival Patriarch (Mar Addai) was elected. There have been talks since then to bring the 2 sides together again. I personally attend a New Calendrian CoE parish, but I hope that Mar Dinkha reverses the decision by Mar Eshai Shimun and restores the original date - Jan. 6th. That way, the rival Patriarch will merge back in and the CoE can be restored to one again. Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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armenrz
    Member: Posts: 2 Member Feedback |
Dec-03-2001 at 09:19 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
Akhi Paul, I am sad to know such a fact. See how fast people adopt a new "foreign" culture? If your people gradually assimilates with the Westerners, by the end of this century, will there be Church of The East anymore ? Let me share a good verse: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve YHWH, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve YHWH." (Joshua 24:15) G-d said that we should not mix our ways with the heathens. So let them celebrate the feast of sun-god, but you and your house, you will serve YHWH ! Shlama, Armen
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Dec-03-2001 at 10:47 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #3
Shlama Akhi Armen, You have echoed my feelings about these matters. The fact is, assimilation is happening "full speed" in the West where many of my people of various churches reside. Of particular concern to the portion of us who belong to the CoE (others belong to the SOC and CCC and various Protestant denominations) is that the CoE was traditionally the most isolated and the most vulnerable to assimiliation because of it's unique traditions. One of the reasons I started this website was to preserve these things - especially our Aramaic language, in the face of such strong tendencies to assimilate. I had spoken at a gathering back in September about this very topic - you can read the speech here: https://www.peshitta.org/BethGaza/Preservation.htm One note about the great verse from Joshua 24:15 - the word translated "Flood" there is 'Nahar' in Hebrew, which the King James translators erroneously rendered as "Flood" - it should be "The River", referring of course to the Euphrates River. What is being said in that verse is that the People of Israel should choose whether they are going to serve the gods of their forefathers back in Mesopotamia (where Abraham came from) or the gods of the new land they've travelled to, or the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. As for me and my household, we will serve YHWH who had revealed himself to those 3 Assyrians who left their homeland and their families in Mesopotamia and "wandered" to the Promised Land, while at the same time opposing moves by those within our own community who would have us assimilate for petty convenience. As you can tell, my sympathies are with the Old Calendar faction of the CoE although I am obedient to the true Patriarch, Mar Dinkha. I hope the reconciliation talks conclude soon and that the old date is restored. But until then - I pray for unity in all believers, not just the CoE. If you really think about it - all other matters of dates, times and feasts are secondary in importance. "That they may be one, as you and I are one." John 17:21 Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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armenrz
    Member: Posts: 2 Member Feedback |
Dec-04-2001 at 09:06 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #5
Shlama akhi Paul, I do admire all your efforts for preservation of Aramaic language and culture. Besides, I have to admit how much I enjoy and take benefits from this site. BTW, speaking about unity and feasts, what do you think about this prophecy ? "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHWH Tse'vaot, and to keep the feast of Sukkot." (Zakharia 14:16) It tells that all nations someday will worship YHWH in unity and keep His feast. It does not look like Xmas to me. It will be Sukkot, the feast of YHWH. Shlama, Armen
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Dec-04-2001 at 04:43 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #7
Shlama Akhi Armen, BTW, speaking about unity and feasts, what do you think about this prophecy ? "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHWH Tse'vaot, and to keep the feast of Sukkot." (Zakharia 14:16) It tells that all nations someday will worship YHWH in unity and keep His feast. It does not look like Xmas to me. It will be Sukkot, the feast of YHWH.
Yes, indeed. We will all worship our God YHWH in that day and even offer Qorban at the temple in the New Jerusalem, which does not exist today. In the meantime, we are all imperfect and live in an imperfect world and worship in imperfect ways and attend imperfect religious institutions. Until the day when our worship and our understanding is perfected in the New Jerusalem, under Mshikha our King - let us look beyond our imperfections and our differences and gaze upon Him who said: Bear my yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am tranquil and meek in heart: and you will find tranquility in your souls. For my yoke is pleasant, and my burden is light. (Mattai 11:29-30) Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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Dec-05-2001 at 09:13 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #8
Shlama, >"And it shall come to pass, >that every one that is >left of all the nations >which came against Jerusalem shall >even go up from year >to year to worship the >King, YHWH Tse'vaot, and to >keep the feast of Sukkot." >(Zakharia 14:16) > >It tells that all nations someday >will worship YHWH in unity >and keep His feast. It >does not look like Xmas >to me. It will be >Sukkot, the feast of YHWH.
According to the book under title "The Coptic Orthodox Church" by Markus Aziz khalil, p.35 informed that we should keep the feast of the Maran Eshoa's birthday on 25 moon29th in the Hebrew calendar (Didascalia/Dastur ar-rasuliy)that was on 29 moon4th in the Coptic Calendar. As far as I know that Hebrew Calendar have two divisions they are the secret calendar (it was enacted since Israel went back from captivity in Babylon, start in Nissan (=April) and the Civil calendar, start in Tisyri/Etanim (=October). And according to Luke 1:26 it is told that the Angel Gabriel give a massage in the moon 6th of Hebrew calendar. And the moon 6th of the Civil Calendar is Adar (=March)so the Angel Gabriel came to Maryam on 25 Adar and then the birth of Maran Eshoa fall on 25 Tebeth (= December 25). These calculation is match with the conjunction Of Jupiter and Saturn, on December at 7th year B.C.E. Alaha Natirokh, Rudolf
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Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Dec-07-2001 at 12:35 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #9
Shlama Akhi Rudolf, The concept of the secret Hebrew calendar is fascinating. We Assyrians, in fact, have celebrated our "New Year" on the first day of Nisan ("Khad b'Nisan", April 1) for over 6,700 years now. It's interesting that the secret calendar was enacted during the Babylonian Captivity. I wonder what other sources say about that. In regards to the Dec. 25th date - there is too much testimony in the Eastern (Aramaic-speaking) Church about this date being forced on people because of the pagan roots it had and the need to incorporate an important pagan festival into Christianity and win those people over. It originally was (and still is by the Old Calendrian CoE, Greek Orthodox and Armenian Orthodox churches) celebrated on Jan. 6th - just like St. Ephraem (306-373 AD) testified to in his Hymns on the Nativity. Fk^rwbw 0ml4
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Dec-04-2001 at 09:06 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #3
Shlama Akh Armen, >I am sad to know such >a fact. >See how fast people adopt a >new "foreign" culture? If your >people gradually assimilates with the >Westerners, by the end of >this century, will there be >Church of The East anymore >? As far as I know when we learn textual criticism of the Bible, I think we should know the term "text" and "context". So I think you must analysis the text before interprete of the verse. Maybe you are right in one aspect but we have to remember, eventhough we read in the same text the interpretation usually diferent it depend the emphasize of ours reading. I think we should learn on "hermeneutic" of the Bible and of course include the history, linguistic, etc. Or we can compare "Oral/written" tradition. "Let every man be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger." (James 1:19) Alaha Natirokh, Rudolf
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