Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-20-2002 at 10:07 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
"My mind is made up!" Akhi jdrywood, Let me get this straight are you saying that mar-YAH is not linguistically YHWH? Are you saying that thousands of years and thousands of times used, in both the PNT & POT, is wrong or misunderstood? Dont you realize that millions of people worldwide in Semitic-based churches meet on Sunday to worship mar-YAH and recognize Yeshua as such! There is no confusion on this point! THE USAGE OF THE WORD IS UNDENIABLE . ABSOLUTELY UNDENIABLE AS DEITY NOT ONLY AS DEITY BUT AS THE EXACT COGNATE OF THE HEBREW "YHWH". Akhi Paul explained it to you with the patience of a saint. Akhi Andrew (not Andy) described it point-by-point . Weve all demonstrated linguistically what the text means. And now you, someone who a few days ago saw the word for the first time in your life, are gonna stand here and demonstrate what it does and does not mean! The tone of your recent posts, I must add, are replete with sarcasm and condescension even brinking on insulting! So if you dont like what the text says . If you dont like how exact and no-nonsense the Aramaic is concerning this doctrine, then I think its time you reconsider your theological position or the source text its based on, instead continuing your futile attempt to rewrite the Aramaic dictionary and Semitic-Christian liturgical history you know so little about. Akhi Dean
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
- RE: don't confuse me with the facts,
jdrywood, Feb-22-2002 at 01:16 AM, (1)
- RE: don't confuse me with the facts,
jdrywood, Feb-22-2002 at 03:38 AM, (2)
- RE: don't confuse me with the facts,
Dean, Feb-22-2002 at 04:09 AM, (3)
- You are confused with the facts.,
Paul Younan
, Feb-22-2002 at 05:34 PM, (5)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-22-2002 at 07:26 PM, (6)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Paul Younan
, Feb-22-2002 at 09:00 PM, (7)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Dean, Feb-22-2002 at 09:32 PM, (8)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-22-2002 at 11:29 PM, (9)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Dean, Feb-23-2002 at 00:06 AM, (10)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-23-2002 at 01:03 AM, (11)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Dean, Feb-23-2002 at 01:14 AM, (12)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-23-2002 at 02:05 AM, (13)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Dean, Feb-23-2002 at 02:18 AM, (14)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-23-2002 at 05:39 AM, (15)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-23-2002 at 06:35 AM, (16)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Dean, Feb-25-2002 at 09:09 PM, (17)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
Dean, Feb-25-2002 at 09:38 PM, (18)
- RE: You are confused with the facts.,
jdrywood, Feb-26-2002 at 06:57 PM, (19)
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 01:16 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #0
Hello Dean, As Lamsa translates Luke 23:31 what will be done with dry wood?. Well, Ill have you know that he is made of hardwood and wants you to explain to him from the scriptures why mari and not MaRYA is applied in Matthew 15:25 and 27. Paul brought out a rare example in Keepa 5:3 that the form of MaRYA could be taken as overlord. Well, here is the chief overlord who is taken for a man with special powers to heal the sick. I am not attacking you Dean Dane only your, how did you say oh my mine is made up. Showing restraint jdrywood wdqyso ywxnN mN amls jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 03:38 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
hello all, I'll try to get the estrangalo script right next time. working on it. Oh, the Canucks are at it again tonight, enjoy the game. Ahki Andrew I wanted to know what the equivalent word was for angel in Gen 18:3. Ahki jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Rob
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 07:16 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #2
Shlama Akhay, In the Hebrew of Genesis 18:3, we have Abraham addressing 'Adonai'. This special verse has always been believed by the Rabbis to be sacred, and that Abraham is speaking to and addressing God. Aramaic Targum Onkelos treats this as it were YHWH and translates it with two yods (the standard Onkelos translation of YHWH). The Peshitta simply follows the same understanding and translates it with Marya. Shlama, Rob
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 04:09 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
Shlama jdrywood, I think you're confused again. Akhi Paul did not show us an example where MaRYA meant overlords. MarYA never means anything but YHWH! Keepa 5:3 is an example of where two words spelled exactly alike sounds and means differently. Overlords in Keepa 5:3 is pronounced MARAYE and is plural. As far as Mattai 15 is concerned, This woman whom Yeshua is conversing with addresses Him as "My Lord" in the formal Human sense much in the same way as I would call you Mister Jdrywood -no more no less. In the Gospels we do find different people addressing Yeshua in different ways -some call him "Teacher", some "Rabbi", some "My Lord" Hope this helps, Dean >Hello Dean, > > As >Lamsa translates Luke 23:31 what >will be done with dry >wood?. Well, Ill have you >know that he is made >of hardwood and wants you >to explain to him from >the scriptures why mari and >not MaRYA is applied in >Matthew 15:25 and 27. Paul >brought out a rare example >in Keepa 5:3 that >the form of MaRYA could >be taken as overlord. Well, >here is the chief overlord >who is taken for a >man with special powers to >heal the sick. I am >not attacking you Dean Dane >only your, how did you >say oh my mine is >made up. Showing restraint jdrywood > > > wdqyso ywxnN mN >amls >jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 05:34 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #1
Shlama Akhi John, You wrote: ...explain to him from the scriptures why mari and not MaRYA is applied in Matthew 15:25 and 27. Meshikha is called Mari (my lord), too. Why does that matter? So what if He's not always referred to as MarYah? Must He always be referred to as "MarYah?" Paul brought out a rare example in Keepa 5:3 that the form of MaRYA could be taken as overlord. You misunderstood my post. The word in Keepa 5:33 is NOT a "form of MarYa" - it's a form of "Mara." Specifically, it's the irregular form of the plural Emphatic state. As a summary, both "MarYah" (The LORD, YAH) and "Mara-ye" ("overlords") derive from the same lexeme "Mara" ("lord") which in turn derives from the absolute root "Mar." Fk^rwbw 0ml4
Peshitta.org
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 07:26 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #5
Hello again ahky, Thankyou Dean & Paul for those thoughts, the point I was trying to show is that the form of the word in Keepa 5:3 is such that a time without vowels it would have been mistaken for LORD but was not. Anyhow the woman still took him for a man and not a god. Now Rob brings out an interesting point about these three men as they are called in verse 2 who present themselves before Abraham and dine with him. Reminds me of Hebrews 13:2 some have entertained angels unawares. Ahki Andrew informs me from post on tongues that YHWH is understood to have appeared in verse 1 and Rob informs me (hes got talent) that the sacred double is taken for ADONAY so that the reader would not pronounce YHWH or MaRYA. My Leningrad MT also reads ADONAY to distinguish from adoni in verse12 my lord. I like my KING JAMES, it shows these slit differences too. So theology not linguistics is telling us here that these THREE are ONE. (count 1) Now if that is so why in chapter 19:1 do we have TWO angels at Sodom to which lot bows to and calls them my lords. My MT reads ADONAY here as in the previous chapter thus linguistically MaRYA should show in the Peshitta. Ken! If that is true then theology would have us believe TWO in ONE. (count 2) Now in Genesis chapter 16:13, ONE angel of the LORD appears to Hagar and she calls him God. Again my MT reads AIL for the name of the LORD (YHWH or MaRYA) that spake unto her. If linguistically, all these representatives or angels are called by the same deity then theology would have us believe ONE in ONE. (count three) So much for theology. My KING JAMES distinguishes these titles (Upper or lower case) so that every one who is not trained in linguistics can understand the role of the angels in old testament times as representatives of the almighty and they are usually called elohim on occasion and not just malach. I think you can appreciate the problem I have with second century theology. Grace to all and love of understanding. jdrywood osyqdw Nnxwy Nm aml4
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Paul Younan
    Member: Jun-1-2000 Posts: 1,306 Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 09:00 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #6
Shlama Akhi John, Why do you keep bringing up the story of the woman at the well? She didn't know who Jesus was - so we wouldn't expect her to call Him "MarYah"! Does the fact that Pontius Pilate never called Him "MarYah" support your theological position of the diety of Christ, too? Surely - Pontius Pilate MUST have known! How about Caiphas the High Priest? He should have called Jesus "MarYah", too? C'MON. What kind of line of reasoning is this? Fk^rwbw 0ml4
Peshitta.org
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 09:32 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #6
Shlama Akhay, Lets remember that later on in Jewish history there was a movement by some scribes NOT to write or pronounce Alahas name (YHWH). It is well know that the Masorites began substituting Adonai for YHWH. I think there are over 130 cases of these revisions. Interestingly, the PeshittaOT consistently uses its original mar-YAH in every case. -Dean
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-22-2002 at 11:29 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #8
Ahki Paul, I forgot to reference Robs point about Gen 18:3 in my long post which would certainly confuse us. You are correct about Pilate and the HP. I was only examining the linguistics of mari used here and elsewhere to see a pattern developing. And khta Dean (is that correct) has reflected on the wide use of MaRYA in Peshitta OT for ADONAY. The 130 places she refers to are found in the preface of the Companion Bible. Just to repeat the post to see a pattern developing: about this word LORD (KJ) ADONAY (MT) MaRYA (Peshitta OT) these angels bear the name of deity. So my point in Genesis is if they are representatives of Ail, or Alaha then perhaps the pattern is consistent in the Peshitta NT with respect to Jesus relationship with his Father. For clarity I repeat part of the post again For any comments: Now Rob brings out an interesting point in Genesis 18 about these three men as they are called in verse 2 who present themselves before Abraham and dine with him. Reminds me of Hebrews 13:2 some have entertained angels unawares. Ahki Andrew informs me from post on tongues that YHWH is understood to have appeared in verse 1 and Rob informs me (hes got talent) that the sacred double is taken for ADONAY so that the reader would not pronounce YHWH or MaRYA. My Leningrad MT also reads ADONAY to distinguish from adoni in verse12 my lord. I like my KING JAMES, it shows these slit differences too. So theology not linguistics is telling us here that these THREE are ONE. (count 1) Now if that is so why in chapter 19:1 do we have TWO angels at Sodom to which lot bows to and calls them my lords. My MT reads ADONAY here as in the previous chapter thus linguistically MaRYA should show in the Peshitta. Ken! If that is true then theology would have us believe TWO in ONE. (count 2) Now in Genesis chapter 16:13, ONE angel of the LORD appears to Hagar and she calls him God. Again my MT reads AIL for the name of the LORD (YHWH or MaRYA) that spake unto her. If linguistically, all these representatives or angels are called by the same deity then theology would have us believe ONE in ONE. (count three) So much for theology. My KING JAMES distinguishes these titles (Upper or lower case) so that every one who is not trained in linguistics can understand the role of the angels in old testament times as representatives of the almighty and they are usually called elohim on occasion and not just malach. I think you can appreciate the problem I have with second century theology. Now maybe Dean Dana could check for us Gen 18:12 my lord MT= adoni to see if this is properly mari in her Peshitta OT to distinguish from the sacred usuage of MaRYA in verse 3. So that we see both examples used for men and angels. What would the Semite view be about these angels bearing THE NAME of MAR-YAH? Ahky john PS where do you find the time for ACTS 3? Shlama
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 00:06 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #9
Last edited by Dean on Feb-23-2002 at 01:06 AM (GMT3) Last edited by Dean on Feb-23-2002 at 00:49 AM (GMT3) Shlama jdrywood, Firstly, I'm a guy so Akhi works just fine  Secondly, you are once again confused about my post regarding the Peshitta OT/Adonai/Mar-YAH. I was not saying the the POT translates mar-YAH for Adonai! Rather, I was trying to point out that many MT's occurances of Adonai may have originally been YHWH -we know of 130+ instances of that. The POT predates the MT's YHWH > Adonai revisions! Akhi Dean PS: Gen 18:3 in POT is MaRYA. Gen 18:12 in POT is MaRY
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 01:03 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #10
Ahki Dean, I don't know how I got that impression, I know three Dean's of the opposite sex. So I'm sorry for that mistake. ahki jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 01:14 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #11
Akhi jdrywood, No problem ... just dont let it happen again :P By the way Gen 18:3 in POT is MaRYA. Gen 18:12 in POT is MaRY. -Ahki Dean
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 02:05 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #12
Well then, I proved my point, thank you. The 3 men in Gen 18 are angels because they appear in 19:2 with the same linguistics ADoNAY = MaRYA.evryone agree on this from the evidence. Also are we 100% sure about elohim = God or Alaha (plural) in POT or are their exceptions. Anyone care to try this one. Grace to you all. Ahki jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 02:18 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #13
Last edited by Dean on Feb-23-2002 at 02:24 AM (GMT3) Last edited by Dean on Feb-23-2002 at 02:23 AM (GMT3) Akhi jdrywood, Did you fail to notice who Abraham is speaking to in chapter 18? Who appeared in verse 1? Is it not YHWH himself? (also mar-YAH in the POT) Even in verse 3 didnt the Masorites insert the vowels for ADNY as ADONAI (not ADONEE) implying the understanding that Abraham is addressing YHWH -hence the mar-YAH translation in the POT? This is not an angel ... its YHWH. As for 19:2, they are just angels -hence the POT has the plural form of Mar NOT mar-YAH. What's your point? -Dean
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 05:39 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #14
Akhi Dean, Did you fail to notice who Abraham is speaking to in chapter 18? Who appeared in verse 1? Is it not YHWH himself? (also mar-YAH in the POT) THE VOWELS IN VERSE ONE ARE FOR SHeMa A SURROGATE WORD ACCORDING TO AUTHORITY PAUL KEILE,DECEASED. HOWEVER, MY MT READS VOWELS FOR SHeMa WITH SEWA ABOVE. MT ALEPPO THE SAME. THE LORD APPEARED TO MOSES ON THE MOUNT TOO BUT MAR PAUL IN ACTS 7: 30 SAYS IT WAS AN ANGEL OF LORD IN BUSH WHO SPOKE IN NAME OF THE GOD OF FATHERS, HE TREMBLED AND DID NOT BEHOLD THIS ANGEL OR DIE. NO MAN CAN LOOK UPON DEITY AND LIVE ACCORDING TO MOSES EXODUS 33:20. SO MOSES SAW HINDER PARTS OF ANGEL MANIFESTATION OF DEITY. Even in verse 3 didnt the Masorites insert the vowels for ADNY as ADONAI (not ADONEE) implying the understanding that Abraham is addressing YHWH -hence the mar-YAH translation in the POT? THE MASORETE NOTE BESIDE ADoNaY INDICATES 134 PLACES (CODE men-nun-hay) WHERE THIS WORD HAS BEEN INSERTED IN PLACE OF YHWH IF I AM READING IT CORRECTLY. DR JOHN THOMAS WROTE THE NAME YHWH HAS NO DOUBT BEEN SUBSTITUTED FOR ADON, RULER, lord, IN THESE 134 PLACES. MY MT READS VOWEL FOR aDoNaY AS YOU INDICATE HOWEVER, THE DOT ABOVE DELAPH IS DROPPED IN MOST PLACES. THE POINTING IN LENINGRAD HERE IS SIMILAR TO GEN 19:2 EQUATING THE TWO REFERENCES BUT NO INDICATION IN THE MASSORAH OF ANY TAMPERING. This is not an angel ... its YHWH. THIS IS NOW IN THE REALM OF INTREPRETATION, I DONT BELIEVE ANY HUMAN CAN SEE DEITY AND LIVE AS MOSES SAID. As for 19:2, they are just angels -hence the POT has the plural form of Mar NOT mar-YAH. THANK-YOU FOR THIS, THE LENINGRAD MT READS aDoNaY THOUGH THE KING JAMES AND POT READ lords. What's your point? THIS IS STILL ANGELIC MANIFESTION OR REPRESENTATION. ANGELS BORE DEITIES NAME IN ADDITION TO THERE OWN JUST LIKE JESUS. I TOOK MY TIME HERE AND DOUBLE CHECKED jdrywood osyqdw Nnxwy Nm aml4
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-23-2002 at 06:35 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #15
also dean, could you look up your POT for Gen 19:18 the MT shows aDoNaY for 'my lord' refering to "them" the angels so we have 'my lords' in verse two (plural), and the other singular. what is the Aramaic for verse 18 as is it different from verse one. If POT is older as you say is this tampering? ahki jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-25-2002 at 09:09 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #16
Shlama jdrywood, Gen 19:18 in POT has the plural form of MRY.
-Dean >also dean, could you look up >your POT for Gen 19:18 >the MT shows aDoNaY for >'my lord' refering to "them" >the angels so we have >'my lords' in verse two >(plural), and the other singular. >what is the Aramaic for >verse 18 as is it >different from verse one. If >POT is older as you >say is this tampering? ahki >jdrywood
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
Dean
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-25-2002 at 09:38 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #15
Shlama jdrywood, I realize that your theology requires you to interpret passages a certain way, however the text of Gen 18 simply does not support your view. Like it or not ... Here is what the text reveals -without interpretation (lets see how you answer these questions?): Bresheet Chapter 18:1-3 Q. Who appeared to Abraham? A. YHWH (v1) Q. Who did Abraham speak to? A. ADONAI (which is a substitute for YHWH)(v3) Now if Abraham's 3 visitors were mere men (or angels) what's the significance of verse 1? Why is it even there if YHWH's appearing is not part of the context of v2&3. >THIS IS NOW IN THE REALM >OF INTREPRETATION, I DONT BELIEVE >ANY HUMAN CAN SEE DEITY >AND LIVE AS MOSES SAID. Obviously YHWH is fully capable of manifesting himself while shielding the full glory, which would otherwise disintegrate anybody in close proximity! (or God cant do that?) There are other examples of this! -Dean
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
jdrywood
   Member: Member Feedback |
Feb-26-2002 at 06:57 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria) |
In reply to message #18
Ahki Dean, Now if Abraham's 3 visitors were mere men (or angels) what's the significance of verse 1? Why is it even there if YHWH's appearing is not part of the context of v2&3. Your comments of Bresheet Chapter 18 are welcomed and the answer to your two questions is YES, Abraham met 3 visitors who looked like men representing deity. Moses who compiled these stories about Abraham specifically says in Exodus 6:3 that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew God only by the name of Ail ShaddaY , I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob by Ail ShaddaY, but by my name LORD I was not known to them. The Hebrew here you can check expects a negative answer because it lacks a definite article so it is properly read, I was not known unto them. Therefore, if LORD (YHWH) in Gen 18:1 was not known at this time then someone changed the original appellative, maybe it was Moses. Possibly the former appellative was Ail ShaddaY as in Gen 17:1 or simply elohim a word used throughout Genesis one for deity. The Samaritan Penteteuch shows elohim in place of YHWH in many places. I wilI give one example so you can check the Targum at Exodus 3:4 where both LORD and God show elohim (no distinction) a word specifically used here to denote angelic manifestation not very deity. We know this from what Mar Paul says about Moses talking to an angel at the bush, Acts 7:30. I believe Mar Paul was inspired so he wouldnt lie to us about this. Since the events of Genesis 18 have to do with deity talking to men the context introduces angels. The point is that YHWH was not the original appellative so a Semite like Abraham would understand these visitors as Shaddee come from the great high Ail. I hope this helps because as ahki Paul says the Peshitta OT is a translation of the Hebrew in Ezras days. Grace to you, jdrywood osyqdw Nnxwy Nm aml4
| |
|
Print Top | | |
|
|