Assyrian Forums
 Home  |  Ads  |  Partners  |  Sponsors  |  Contact  |  FAQs  |  About  
 
   Holocaust  |  History  |  Library  |  People  |  TV-Radio  |  Forums  |  Community  |  Directory
  
   General  |  Activism  |  Arts  |  Education  |  Family  |  Financial  |  Government  |  Health  |  History  |  News  |  Religion  |  Science  |  Sports
   Greetings · Shläma · Bärev Dzez · Säludos · Grüße · Shälom · Χαιρετισμοί · Приветствия · 问候 · Bonjour · 挨拶 · تبریکات  · Selamlar · अभिवादन · Groete · التّحيّات

Archived: Read only    Previous Topic Next Topic
Home Forums Peshitta Topic #93
Help Print Share

 
Send email to Send private message to Add  to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

I also %0D%0A%3Efelt gripped by the cause %0D%0A%3Eof Atoor and I adopted %0D%0A%3Ethe suffering of the Ashuris %0D%0A%3Eas my own. The internet %0D%0A%3Eis a powerful%2C God-given tool %0D%0A%3Ewhich can help overcome the %0D%0A%3Eoppression -- at least of %0D%0A%3Eculture and language -- which %0D%0A%3Etyranny of one sort or %0D%0A%3Eanother has heaped on religious %0D%0A%3Eminorities. A tremendous international ally %0D%0A%3Eof oppressed minorities is the %0D%0A%3Eformer president of Ireland%2C Mrs. %0D%0A%3EMary Robinson%2C UN High Commissioner %0D%0A%3Efor Human Rights. The year %0D%0A%3E2000 report of the UN %0D%0A%3ECommission on Human Rights condemns %0D%0A%3Ethe treatment of religious minorities %0D%0A%3E-- naming the Assyrian Christians %0D%0A%3Eespecially -- in three countries %0D%0A%3Eof %0D%0A%3Ethe Middle East and calls on %0D%0A%3Etheir governments to cease the %0D%0A%3Epersecution immediately. While the Commission %0D%0A%3Eon Human Rights and the %0D%0A%3EHigh Commissioner have no enforcement %0D%0A%3Epowers%2C international public opinion%2C the %0D%0A%3Epress and the internet are %0D%0A%3Ethe allies of the Ashuri %0D%0A%3Epeople. %0D%0A%3EAnd of course the fact that %0D%0A%3Emore and more Ashuris now %0D%0A%3Eare citizens of the USA %0D%0A%3Eand can influence US foreign %0D%0A%3Epolicy through their votes. I %0D%0A%3Eknow that a newspaper article %0D%0A%3Eabout persecution of Assyrians in %0D%0A%3Eone of the countries of %0D%0A%3Ethe near east led to %0D%0A%3Estate department pressure on the %0D%0A%3Egovernment of that country. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EIn any case%2C Akhi Paul%2C I %0D%0A%3Eknow your forum is non %0D%0A%3Epolitical and that we are %0D%0A%3Eall here united by our %0D%0A%3Elove of the Peshitta and %0D%0A%3Eof Eeshoo M%27sheeka%2C but I %0D%0A%3Edid want to share those %0D%0A%3Ethoughts with you. Al- though %0D%0A%3EI am not ethnically an %0D%0A%3EAshuri%2C you should consider me %0D%0A%3Ea spiritual brother%2C one who %0D%0A%3Eis at least as eager %0D%0A%3Eas you that the Peshitta %0D%0A%3Eand the magnificent Ashuri culture %0D%0A%3Elive on forever. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ENow back to our Peshitta discussion%2C %0D%0A%3Ethe Greek NT transcribes in %0D%0A%3EMark 10%3A51 the word of %0D%0A%3EEeshoo%27s followers as %22RABBOUNI%22 whereas %0D%0A%3Ethe Peshitta has %22RABI%22. %0D%0A%3EI was curious about the %0D%0A%3Etwo forms. Matthew Black says %0D%0A%3Ethat the Palestinian Pentateuch Targum %0D%0A%3Euses also %22RABBOUNI%22. %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EI would also like to hear %0D%0A%3Ea bit more about your %0D%0A%3Eown study of the Aramaic %0D%0A%3Epoetry in the Peshitta%2C which %0D%0A%3Eis so beautiful. I sense %0D%0A%3Eit all the time. I %0D%0A%3Eam currently carrying around with %0D%0A%3Eme a copy of The %0D%0A%3ELost Gospel Q%2C as reconstructed %0D%0A%3Eby Marc Borg%2C and below %0D%0A%3Eeach of EEshoo%27s sayings%2C I %0D%0A%3Ehave copied out the corresponding %0D%0A%3EPeshitta quotes and am committing %0D%0A%3Eit to memory. This way%2C %0D%0A%3EI have the satisfaction of %0D%0A%3Efeeling communion with the early %0D%0A%3Efollowers of EEshoo in the %0D%0A%3Edecades following his Qyamta who %0D%0A%3Ewere said to have carried %0D%0A%3Ewith them codices of papyrus %0D%0A%3Ewith the Aramaic sayings of %0D%0A%3EEeshoo. The four evangelists are %0D%0A%3Esaid to have based their %0D%0A%3EGospels on this now lost %0D%0A%3EAramaic Q. Along with my %0D%0A%3Ehope that some day%2C you %0D%0A%3Eor someone else might find %0D%0A%3Ein the caves in the %0D%0A%3Emountains a first century Peshitta%2C %0D%0A%3Eis the hope that you %0D%0A%3Eor someone else might also %0D%0A%3Efind a papyrus codex of %0D%0A%3EQ%21 %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EWith these happy thoughts and eagerly %0D%0A%3Eawaiting your reply%2C %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EShalama wa Burkate%2C %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3ENicholas %0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3E%0D%0A%3EAnyway %0D%0A%0D%0A%0D%0A.

Dec-- at 00: AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #
 

Print Top

 
Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

1. RE: Syriac use by Eeshoo

Oct-15-2000 at 00:12 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Nicholas,

Welcome to the forum and thank you very much for your kind remarks.

I assume from your post that you are an Assyrian/Ashuri like myself.

I actually started about 1 year ago making this interlinear (prior to publishing it on this site) using a "marked" or vowel-inserted format.

The reason I decided to start over and use an un-marked format for the interlinear is because the marked texts came along during the 5th and 6th centuries......the earliest Peshitta manuscripts were, of course, unmarked. This is because the vowel markings were not invented yet.

I wanted to make this text identical with the earliest manuscripts. This was very important to me, because although the vowel markings do indeed help in reading, they are sometimes the result of the personal opinion of the scribe at the time, in which they did not always agree (especially when you compare the "Eastern" and "Western" interpretations).

The same thought with the 5 disputed books. The earliest manuscripts (and still today in the Eastern tradition) did not contain them, so my translation will not either.

I realize that this makes it harder to read and interpret, but it was a trade-off and a decision that I had to make. I thought I would be safest from criticism if I decided to stay with the Pure Peshitta, even to the extent of using the old script (Estrangela) rather than the newer ones (Serto or Swadaya).

I have the same modern Assyrian NT that you speak of.....this was created for us by Protestant (Presbyterian) missionaries in Urmia, from the Greek manuscripts. They say they consulted the Peshitta, but in reality this is not our bible, but one created 85 years ago by the Western missionaries from the Greek texts. It is quite different, as I'm sure you noticed.

The only marked text I have of the original Peshitta was printed in New York, using the 'Swadaya' script. As I'm sure you know by now, it is almost impossible to find even an unmarked Peshitta in print.

Our people are still suffering from the effects of persecution, so it is very hard for us to get back on our feet and begin preserving our heritage and our literary works.

The copy I bought many years ago from the Church of the East, I cannot find anymore.

Tomorrow, I am going to visit Mar Gewargis Church in Chicago to see if there is a way in which I can secure some more copies, or to find out if they are currently in print somewhere in the Middle East.

I also have a copy of the one published in Jerusalem that you have mentioned, and I enjoy it very much. It is how I learned to read the Hebrew Square (Maarav) script too.

I find this statement from you to be very interesting:

>I imagine that the Greek
>advocates will only be silenced
>when a Peshitta manuscript from
>the first century AD is
>discovered

That is very true. The same thing happened many times in the past.

For instance, believe it or not, 100 years ago the scholarly consensus was that the book of Tobit was written in Greek. This was because the "experts" said the Greek was very good, and that the earliest copies were in Greek.

Can you imagine? A Jew living in Ninweh, Assyria, writing in Greek!

Of course, the "scholarly consensus" became "egg on their face" when the original Aramaic Tobit was found in Qumran.

I also await the day when a first or second century copy of the Peshitta is found. It will be a good day for the egg industry!

You know, Akhi, that most of our manuscripts that were very old are hidden in the mountains before we fled the massacre of early WWI. I long to go back there and try to find them. Mar Shimun's library is still up there in Qudch

Print Top
nicholasch
 
Send email to nicholaschSend private message to nicholaschAdd nicholasch to your contact list
 
Member:
Member Feedback

2. RE: Syriac use by Eeshoo

Oct-15-2000 at 08:23 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Shlama Akhi Paul,

Many thanks for your reply. Interestingly, although I attend the Mar Mari Church of the East in Yonkers, New York, I am not of Ashuri descent myself. Indeed, I was born in India, originally of Hindu descent but have grown up in the US. I felt called by Eeshoo about 15 years ago and wanted to pray and communicate with Him in his original language, Aramaic. I am also strongly attracted to the beauty of the rites of the Church of the East, to the fact that the only adornment is the cross and to the liturgy itself.
Although much of the discussion in your forum is historico-linguistic, I do feel the urge to share my personal experience of the use of Eeshoo's original aramaic words in terms of my personal faith. I feel that those words, whether it is rookha d''qoodsha or malkutha d'shmayya minkhoon hii have an incredible power that have gripped me and strengthened greatly my personal faith and belief in Eeshoo Msheeka Breh d'Alaha. I think the Western Churches by relying on translations are depriving themselves of the power of Eeshoo's words. Western Christianity is the only major world religion that relies on translations when you come to think of it. After all, the Jewish people use the Hebrew Tanakh, the Hindus use the Sanskrit Bhagwat Gita, the Zoroastrians use ancient texts in Old Persian, Avestan. All Christians should use the Peshitta and learn Aramaic, whether in the East or West -- that is what I believe!Indeed, the " word" has a power of its own which translations cannot convey.

Anyway, as I began reading the Assyrian websites and attending the Mar Mari Church, I also felt gripped by the cause of Atoor and I adopted the suffering of the Ashuris as my own. The internet is a powerful, God-given tool which can help overcome the oppression -- at least of culture and language -- which tyranny of one sort or another has heaped on religious minorities. A tremendous international ally of oppressed minorities is the former president of Ireland, Mrs. Mary Robinson, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights. The year 2000 report of the UN Commission on Human Rights condemns the treatment of religious minorities -- naming the Assyrian Christians especially -- in three countries of
the Middle East and calls on their governments to cease the persecution immediately. While the Commission on Human Rights and the High Commissioner have no enforcement powers, international public opinion, the press and the internet are the allies of the Ashuri people.
And of course the fact that more and more Ashuris now are citizens of the USA and can influence US foreign policy through their votes. I know that a newspaper article about persecution of Assyrians in one of the countries of the near east led to state department pressure on the government of that country.

In any case, Akhi Paul, I know your forum is non political and that we are all here united by our love of the Peshitta and of Eeshoo M'sheeka, but I did want to share those thoughts with you. Al- though I am not ethnically an Ashuri, you should consider me a spiritual brother, one who is at least as eager as you that the Peshitta and the magnificent Ashuri culture live on forever.

Now back to our Peshitta discussion, the Greek NT transcribes in Mark 10:51 the word of Eeshoo's followers as "RABBOUNI" whereas the Peshitta has "RABI". I was curious about the two forms. Matthew Black says that the Palestinian Pentateuch Targum uses also "RABBOUNI".

I would also like to hear a bit more about your own study of the Aramaic poetry in the Peshitta, which is so beautiful. I sense it all the time. I am currently carrying around with me a copy of The Lost Gospel Q, as reconstructed by Marc Borg, and below each of EEshoo's sayings, I have copied out the corresponding Peshitta quotes and am committing it to memory. This way, I have the sati

Print Top

Paul Younanmoderator

 
Send email to Paul YounanSend private message to Paul YounanView profile of Paul YounanAdd Paul Younan to your contact list
 
Member: Jun-1-2000
Posts: 1,306
Member Feedback

3. RE: Syriac use by Eeshoo

Oct-15-2000 at 09:19 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Shlama Akhi Nicholas,

Thank you so much for sharing your experience in the Faith with me. I agree that so much concentration is given on this website to the historical/linguistic aspect, that we altogether miss what the Message is truly about (no matter which language it is spoken in).

Wow, you attend Mar Mari parish? Is Qashisha Dimitri Eskandar the priest there?

I didn't mean to jump to the conclusion that you were Assyrian, you just wrote the words so perfectly that I just assumed you were. The fact that you are a member of the COE kind of explains that, now doesn't it?

From what I hear, the second largest ethnic grouping within the COE is Indian (I think we have some 30 or so parishes there, overseen by their Graces' Mar Aprim and Mar Timotheos).

Of course, before the coming of the Mongols and Turks (especially Timur Lenk), the COE included pretty much all of Asia. Sadly today, we have been reduced to our present state because of the persecution we have endured for centuries. Thanks be to God, though, I feel we are on a threshhold of revival.....that we may once again take the Word to China and Mongolia! Amen!

To me, of course, it matters nothing whether someone is Assyrian or Arabian or Hebrew or Indian or Japanese.......we are all brothers/sisters in Mshikha. Everybody is an "Akha" to me, and I always call everyone "Akhi..." (my brother).

About the Western world having been deprived for so long of the original words of the Messiah...this is why I felt a calling to do this work. From now on, this belongs to the world. Even now, already there are so many who have written here on this board and to my personal email to let me know how much they appreciate this feeble work. I only pray that God may, once again, use this language and this text to HIS Glory.....and to HIM be praise now and always, AMEN.

About "Rabbani" vs. "Rabbi", both words are derived from the Semitic root "Rab", which means literally "Great" or "High" or "Exalted".

The difference between the words is slight, but "Rabban" typically is used to mean "Master", whereas "Rabbi" is typicaly used to mean "Teacher". Both instances are close in meaning, as teachers are thought of as someone "Higher" or "Greater" than their students.

Why the Greek would have recorded "Rabbani" versus "Rabbi", like the Aramaic scriptures do, is a mystery. Both are correct, and both look very similiar when written. In fact, the only letter which is different is the extra "Nun" in 'Rabbani', which is a small letter anyway. The original Aramaic manuscripts from which the Greek was drawn may have had a smudge-mark or other distortion which looked like a "Nun".

I tend to think that the Peshitta preserves more faithfully the original "Rabbi", since there are many instances of this term being used for Maran by various people in the NT.

The Poetry. I see it all the time too, in fact there are many messages about this on this board (if you proceed to look at the previous pages of the forum, which are linked at the top right-hand side).

I see it all the time too, to the extent that if I was to write about each one....my translation work would never finish! It is, literally, all over the place.

One of the most gratifying personal discoveries for myself was Zacharyah's Canticle. How it broke out so beautifully in the rhythmic strophe pattern so typical of Semitic (and particularly Aramaic) poetry.

I do intend to continue posting the more eye-catching ones as I find them while translating. Perhaps even one day write about them all on this website or in a book.

Thanks again for all your wonderful comments, and I look forward

Print Top

Forums Topics  Previous Topic Next Topic


Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

Please consider the environment when disposing of this material — read, reuse, recycle. ♻
AIM | Atour: The State of Assyria | Terms of Service