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Thiede fragment

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Biga
 
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Thiede fragment

Mar-05-2002 at 07:11 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

Hello akhay,

anyone heard about the greek Matthew fragment, discovered by the archeologist Carsten Thiede? This fragment is from the first century. Many states this proves the greek origin.

cheers,
Gabor

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Iakov
 
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1. RE: Thiede fragment

Mar-05-2002 at 09:04 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Akhi Gabor,


>anyone heard about the greek Matthew
>fragment, discovered by the archeologist
>Carsten Thiede? This fragment is
>from the first century. Many
>states this proves the greek
>origin.
>
>cheers,
>Gabor

https://www.iso.com/catalog/docs/prod112.htm

An article on this fellow. Have not seen any follow ups in last 5 years. If this were something with veracity we would all be hearing about it in recent articles. That is my 2 cents worth.

Shlama
Yaqub


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Andrew Gabriel Roth
 
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2. RE: Thiede fragment

Mar-06-2002 at 03:04 AM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #1
 
Last edited by Andrew Gabriel Roth on Mar-06-2002 at 03:06 AM (GMT3)

Shlama Akhay--

Sorry to say, but Thiede is a joke. No serious scholar accepts his interpretations about so-called fragments of Matthew and Mark found at Qumran. In at least one case (Mark I think) there only one word on the papyrus that Thiede links "conclusively" to the Gospel-- KAI ("and")! Geza Vermes (The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English), one of the world's leading DSS scholars, trashes Thiede to an unbelievable degree, and I'm pretty sure that Abegg and Cook have simiilar sentiments as well.

I wrote about this find as well in my book, and of course its significance depends on your point of view. A Greek primacist will go, "You see, here is Greek in Israel within 20 years of the crucifixion." An Aramaic primacist will then counter, "You see, here is an early Greek TRANSLATION (assuming KAI is from the Gospels) from Aramaic within 20 years of the crucifixion..." Since even part of the outer Temple walls had a Greek inscription warning Gentiles not to go further or face death, context is key to the whole case.

In the end, it proves nothing, and it disproves nothing except for the fact that the scholarship behind aassigning it to the Gospels is tenuous...and THAT is why you have not heard about it for 5 years.

About all it shows is that UNCIAL style was probably used in the second half of the first century, and most Greek primacists already have that conclusion without turning to Thiede.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

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Biga
 
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3. RE: Thiede fragment

Mar-06-2002 at 05:21 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #2
 
Thank you, Andrew and Yaqub!

It is new information for me. I like books of Geza Vermes (a little bounce: he is also hungarian ). Only problem with him that he is a good researcher but unfortunately tries prove theological things with his archeological knowledge. In his book "The Jew Jesus" what is very useful for scholars, but not too useful for christians - he tried prove Eshoo was simple man, no God. (He wrote a lot about "son of man")

cheers,
Gabor

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Paul Younanmoderator

 
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4. RE: Thiede fragment

Mar-06-2002 at 09:40 PM (UTC+3 Nineveh, Assyria)

In reply to message #0
 
Shlama Akhi Gabor,

Even if a fragment of Matthew was found from 60 AD it would NOT prove or disprove anything. Manuscript age does not matter at all.

The Greeks themselves tell you that Matthew was translated from the Hebrew dialect. The Greeks themselves tell you that "everyone translated as best they could."

What more can they say to settle this issue?

Fk^rwbw 0ml4

Peshitta.org

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Assyria \ã-'sir-é-ä\ n (1998)   1:  an ancient empire of Ashur   2:  a democratic state in Bet-Nahren, Assyria (northern Iraq, northwestern Iran, southeastern Turkey and eastern Syria.)   3:  a democratic state that fosters the social and political rights to all of its inhabitants irrespective of their religion, race, or gender   4:  a democratic state that believes in the freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture in faithfulness to the principles of the United Nations Charter — Atour synonym

Ethnicity, Religion, Language
» Israeli, Jewish, Hebrew
» Assyrian, Christian, Aramaic
» Saudi Arabian, Muslim, Arabic
Assyrian \ã-'sir-é-an\ adj or n (1998)   1:  descendants of the ancient empire of Ashur   2:  the Assyrians, although representing but one single nation as the direct heirs of the ancient Assyrian Empire, are now doctrinally divided, inter sese, into five principle ecclesiastically designated religious sects with their corresponding hierarchies and distinct church governments, namely, Church of the East, Chaldean, Maronite, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholic.  These formal divisions had their origin in the 5th century of the Christian Era.  No one can coherently understand the Assyrians as a whole until he can distinguish that which is religion or church from that which is nation -- a matter which is particularly difficult for the people from the western world to understand; for in the East, by force of circumstances beyond their control, religion has been made, from time immemorial, virtually into a criterion of nationality.   3:  the Assyrians have been referred to as Aramaean, Aramaye, Ashuraya, Ashureen, Ashuri, Ashuroyo, Assyrio-Chaldean, Aturaya, Chaldean, Chaldo, ChaldoAssyrian, ChaldoAssyrio, Jacobite, Kaldany, Kaldu, Kasdu, Malabar, Maronite, Maronaya, Nestorian, Nestornaye, Oromoye, Suraya, Syriac, Syrian, Syriani, Suryoye, Suryoyo and Telkeffee. — Assyrianism verb

Aramaic \ar-é-'máik\ n (1998)   1:  a Semitic language which became the lingua franca of the Middle East during the ancient Assyrian empire.   2:  has been referred to as Neo-Aramaic, Neo-Syriac, Classical Syriac, Syriac, Suryoyo, Swadaya and Turoyo.

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